Advocacy and Special Education Law

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Transcript of “Advocacy and Special Education Law” – Bright Conversations Podcast

Hi and welcome to an episode of Bright Conversations. I am one of your hosts for today, Shontaye Glover Jones. We're also joined with my co-host Sarah Bevier of Bright Ideas Media. Today we are excited to sit down with one of our speakers from the July 2025 SLP Summit. If you were able to join us, we had a fantastic course that talked all about advocacy and special education law.

Today, Krystal Ash from K Altman Law is joining us to continue that conversation. Hi, Krystal. Hi, Shontaye. Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me.

Welcome. Thank you for accepting our invitation. There was such a great response to your SLP Summit course. I think the hour just wasn't long enough for everyone. There were tons of questions, lots of positive feedback.

Folks really enjoyed the conversation and the information that you and your co-presenter offered. But we wanted to sit down and talk a little bit more about the work that you do and maybe tackle a few of those questions as well. I love to hear that. The hour definitely was not long enough for me. I could talk about this forever.

I love a good presentation. I love to talk about this stuff. So I'm super excited to be here and I'm super excited to have the chance to talk more about advocacy and special education law with you guys. Awesome. Well, as you can hear, Krystal is a very passionate member of the education and special education community.

She is a former teacher and instructional designer. She brings her perspective from the classroom and curriculum based challenges for students with special needs to the firm. With her expertise and in curriculum and instruction, she is striving to bring meaningful change to learners and their families. Krystal, how long have you been working with K Altman Law? I came on board this past January in 2025.

So I'm pretty new here at the firm, but I have just been loving it so far. It's been really, really rewarding to work with families, with kids with special needs and disabilities more directly than I was able to in the traditional brick and mortar school system and have more of those liberties to really make impactful direct change. So it's been really great in these past couple of months. And your firm, you're all located throughout the United States. Would you say that you cover the majority of the United States?

We're pretty far spread out. I think we've got for members in like 23 different states. We're on both coasts. We've got members out in LA in Southern California, and we've got members up in Massachusetts, down in Florida, in Texas. We're pretty far spread out across the board.

That's awesome. And that was one of the questions that people were asking. And of course, you should always get information specific to your state whenever you have questions. Can you just maybe explain a little bit about what special education law is and how your firm assists families? Definitely.

So because we do work under federal law for our special education advocacy practice, we follow the IDEA, which is the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. That's a federal law that provides overarching guidelines to special education rules and regulations. So that's what allows us, even though we are also spread out, to advocate for parents and families and students with special needs. And then from there, each state also has state specific rules and regulations that we can use our expertise to research and find specifics about whenever we run into a specific issue within a case that we need to do further research on. So the rules and regulations for each state, like you said, are super important to make sure you understand and research thoroughly.

But because there's no one specific advocacy certificate, like a lawyer needs their law license or a teacher needs a teaching certificate , there's no one standard advocacy certificate. It's just a general knowledge of special education and the ability to advocate and research effectively. Being able to follow those federal laws and research and follow the state specific rules and regulations is really what allows us to do our very meaningful and impactful work. Yeah, speaking to, there is nothing I love more than, so me advocating on behalf of these students that we're all in this industry, wanting to support and help them to be successful in the classroom. I know as an SLP that was working in the schools for over 10 years, I never wanted to run into you.

When an advocate or an attorney was involved in meetings, it was terrifying. So not because of any other reason, then I knew I was going to be questioned on data and the data making decisions I made. And so I was always a little terrified that maybe I didn't have enough or I wasn't. You know what I mean? So it's just that kind of pressure that you're in a little bit.

So while always in the best interest of students, we want to do our best job, how are some ways that we can avoid running into you? Well, you take the word right out of my mouth. My favorite phrase, data drives decisions. If you are making data-based decisions, if you are basing your practice and data, if you are following your state rules and regulations, if you are following the IDEA or in the instance of a student with a 504, section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, if you are following your rules and regs, if you are making data-based decisions, hopefully you're not going to see me, right? Unless we are just really in a bad spot and we are ill-informed or something like that, data drives decisions, if you are living in the data, we're good.

Yeah. I have to echo Sarah's sentiment during my time as a school-based SLP2. I often did not enjoy the cases when an ad the kit were brought in. Sometimes it might be an attorney, sometimes it was not, but I always felt confident in knowing that I did have my notes and I had my data to support my decision, even if it wasn't necessarily the decision that was the desirable decision. It was always the one that I felt was in the best interest of the student and I had my data to support that decision.

Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. But it's still always a very intimidating encounter when you know as the clin ician. I imagine also as the teacher, knowing that an advocate or attorney is coming in and that you have to sit down and talk with them and that you have to defend your choice. I'm happy to hear what you're saying, the best thing to do is just to make sure that you have your data so that you can be confident in what you're presenting for that particular case and that student. And to be communicative with the parents too, a lot of the cases that we see, you might have your data and you might be making appropriate database decisions , but the parents don't understand and then they become afraid because they don't realize that these are appropriate decisions.

And so really making sure that there's a strong open, honest line of communication so that an advocate doesn't need to come in to interpret that data to then tell mom and dad, "No, he's fine. He's got everything that he needs." Sometimes that's really the missing piece is that everyone's actually all good. We just don't know. We don't realize that. And we need a third party to kind of bridge that communication gap.

That's very true. I do remember one of the comments in the chat relating to it being an adversarial relationship and an attorney or an advocate I brought in and it shouldn't be. And I think it shouldn't be adversarial with the families either. As you mentioned, it's so important to have that communication and have it throughout the whole school year so they constantly feel informed and know what's happening with their student and also get their input. Check in and finding out what do you see at home?

Do you see any progress? Is there anything that you would like for us to do differently in the school setting? But oftentimes that's what's missing. I think you hit it right on the nose when there's no communication and parents feel unheard and they feel like they don't know what's happening. The assumption is, well, maybe nothing is happening.

Yeah, even for our service providers too, our teachers, our related service providers. I know it's so tough to feel like you are going into an us versus them environment. And I do remember the comment that you were speaking to. And my biggest piece of advice for that is you catch more flies with honey. At the end of the day, we're all here to make decisions in a child's best interest and to make appropriate decisions for them.

And if we're going into kind of a cold, shouldered situation, our practice at K Altman Law and what I would always recommend is to go in just as nice as possible. Because like you said, if we're all going in scared and a little bit cold, because we think that you're the one that's going to be the problem, and you think that I'm the one that's going to be the problem, maybe we're all just afraid of each other. If we both come in nice, maybe that solves the whole problem. Yeah, no, I it's so exactly right on because the one thing I was always really confident about was not the data. Like Shontaye said, I wish I had that or I was confident like I've got data.

I know. We 'll talk about data in a second. But one thing I knew I was good at is rapport. And like, you know, like you said, I was always like positive and optimistic and open. I would hoped that, you know, I always tried to use parent-friendly language and show that I was on, you know, like we're all on this team together.

That part I was good at. And so I did never have that adversarial kind of conflict or tension with anyone. I think my like, like, fear, I guess I would say would be because I did question if I had the data and documentation and evidence I needed to support decision that I was making. And it's data's challenging. It's hard to make sure you're getting enough to know what to do with it to, you know, we've got 65 students and all of these goals that we 're measuring.

Then we have to do things we've never seen before. That are challenging is that that makes us feel like imposters because we're not sure how exactly to support them. And so I think that communication was key. And it's like being the one to say, I'm not sure. Like, I'm going to try these things.

Like, I'm going to do these things. But like, I'm hearing what you're telling me is concerns for you and that kind of open communication. But what kind of data, like, how much, like, what are we looking for so that we can try to, I think we created an entire app for data collection for SLPs for this very reason. So I think, you know, kind of share what it is you guys are looking for. Yeah.

So that, again, everything goes back to the state rules and regs. It's really going to be case specific, which I'm sure, you know, as an SLP, you know, it's dependent on that student's disability, on their goals, on the services they're receiving . But it's going to depend on that state's rules and regs as far as what, you know, you're supposed to be collecting how much, when, where, why, but there's always somebody who knows more, your state's Department of Education, your state may even subscribe to a, you know, IEP or service plan provider, where you can actually go in and do that kind of stuff online and it will bounce back if you've done it wrong. Like you just said, there may be other service providers that create programs like that. So I'm a big proponent of research.

There is always somebody smarter than me that I can turn to, whether that's the State Department or the Federal Department of Education, or somebody like you guys who are experts in this kind of thing. And if you really are just totally unsure, reach out to your admin, reach out to anybody who you think might be smarter than you and just say, hey, can you take a look at this? That's something that our experts at Kaltman Law do. We have other experts that we put people in touch with to evaluate. We have evaluation companies across the board that we bring in as experts for our due process, where we have just reached out actually like two days ago to say, hey, we've got a contentious evaluation.

Can you look at this data and let us know which one looks better to use so that we can use that to inform our strategy? So it's really, you know, there's always somebody smarter, or at least we feel that way. And there's no shame in asking for a little bit more help. And honestly, I think that's such a huge takeaway, because I think a lot of it came down to it. And we don't want to ask because we're supposed to be expert.

So I don't want to show you what I don't know. And that took me years to get over. You know, and it is it's that constant imposter syndrome. Like I said earlier, in the school setting, you're constantly battling it. And so you do hesitate to ask.

And yeah, just need to be asking questions and getting in for I love that. When I was in the school for a very long time, I was a paper and pen SLP. I think probably maybe the last three years, I started using SLP toolkit to manage all my paperwork. And that was definitely a game changer, especially when you travel. But I always wondered how long should I be holding on to these data sheets?

Is that something that matters? Should we be holding onto it for a specific amount of time for a particular student? So that's something that's going to vary pretty wildly. I did do a little bit of research into that when I saw that question back in July at the summit. And that's going to be particular to either, you know, the company that you work for if you work for a school or if you work for a private service company, it's I sound like a broken record, but it depends on the state.

It depends on if you're a clinician or an SLP or something like that. Because it can vary what I saw in my research. It can vary anywhere from, you know, a set number of years from when the record is created to a set number of years after a student graduates. So if you created that record when the kid was six, you might be holding on to that for 15 or 16 or 17 years. Oh my gosh.

So it I would recommend to anyone who's, you know, worried about how long to hold on to a record to reach out to their specific administration or their specific record keeping company because that would be the part the smarter person, right, who would have those answers for you because record keeping is super important, especially when it comes to special education and compliance with special education rules and regs. And we want to make sure that's something that we're doing a hundred percent correctly because if you need that data and it's gone, then we're in a pickle. And those with that varying so widely, we want to double and triple check that we're hanging on to that for the right amount of time. That's that's super important to hear, especially when oftentimes we don't have space or storage for everything. So check with your employer, your administration to find out what how long you should be holding on to everything and then where where does it get stored?

Yeah, we typically don't have room to hold on to files for 16 years. Yeah. Um, another question that came up was about IEPs and 504 plans. Why would one student in particular who has ADHD, let's say qualify for an IP whereas another one may only get a 504 plan and why can't a student have both? This is one of my favorite questions because it lets me bring up the difference , especially in the special education law that provides for programming and the true granular difference between an IEP and a 504.

So I love this question. Thank you for this question. So a child cannot have both an IEP and a 504. That is a fact. So they were right on that because in theory, an IEP would have everything that a 504 would include and then some.

So when it comes down to which plan is more appropriate, it really looks at how is the students' disability impacting their education because something like ADHD especially that's going to impact a student in wildly different ways depending on, you know, who that individual is. There might be more of an educational impact for one student than there might be for another student. So if you think of it in this way, right, let's say student A has ADHD and they really only suffer from some inattentiveness. They need to be redirected a lot because they, their mind wand ers, they get distracted, maybe they're a talker, but you know, just a quick redirect, hey, stop talking, pay attention, that kind of thing, that student may be okay which is to 504. Just a couple of accommodations, maybe some preferential seating, some redirection, that kind of a thing.

But child B maybe suffers from some pretty severe executive functioning needs because of their ADHD. And so that student is going to need specialized instruction in planning and organization and that is really going to impact their access to their education. It's going to have an academic impact because of their ADHD, not just, you know, kind of a behavioral thing, but it's really going to become an academic challenge. And so they're going to need a lot of accommodations for their education, for their academics, rather than just, you know, a simple 504, we're really going to need a lot more than a 504 is going to be able to provide. And so that's when they would be eligible for an IEP.

We might also have that preferential seating in that redirection for some inattentiveness in there, but we're going to have that and more when we add that specially designed instruction piece that puts us over the edge into an IEP. That's why we can't have both and that's why you may also see students who have the same disability, ADHD, but because it can manifest in different ways in different students, because every student is an individual, that's how we can end up seeing students have an IEP for ADHD in one case in a 504 in the other, and why they can't have both at the same time. I always thought an IEP means you need me. Like, if it's, you know, speech and language related, like you actually need instruction and intervention to support you in the classroom versus, just like you said, the accommodations that you could be given without, like, I would need to be there for. Like, you don't need my specialty.

Is that true? Is that accurate ? There are some, you know, SLP interventions that could be given in a 504, it would be a far less, you know, structured and like in-depth service, but that's, that's kind of a good way to think of it if you want to kind of put it simply. Is that an IEP is more intensive for instructional intervention and a 504, because a 504 you could have for something as simple as a broken hand, right? Kid can't write.

Okay, we need an accommodation for that. Whereas an IEP, if you break your hand, well, that doesn't really prevent you from learning. It just prevents you from writing. So you don't need something so intensive as an IEP for a broken hand, but you would if you have something that prevents you from learning and accessing your curriculum. What about two E twice exceptional students who aren't failing yet?

That was tricky. Yes. Aren't failing yet, but don't need that executive functioning support. Which of the two would be a better fit for them to be able to get that that support and the modifications of a 504? It sounds like an IEP, but yet they're probably not going to qualify for or let me see, on an assessment, they may not show up as needing an SLP or one-on-one support with the special education teacher resource teacher.

What happens in those situations? So I also love twice exceptional students. That is something that is so close to my heart, and that is such a great question because our twice exceptional students do often fall through their cracks because they don't look like students with disabilities. And they might not show up on certain assessments the same way that students with other disabilities might because exactly like you've said, they're not failing their classes. They're not acting out.

They're not showing those same signs. And yet if you really look at those symptoms of some of these disabilities like ADHD, like the executive functioning and needing those executive functioning skills built into their curriculum, like organization and planning and things like that, you would see that they would need an IEP. And so it's not grades and academic performance is not the only indicator. And to me, that's when, you know, if you've got a student that is clearly showing some sign of some struggle and you just can't quite put your finger on it because they're not failing. And they are, you know, a good kid and they're not showing any other signs.

That's what indicates to me that we need more testing. We need more thorough or comprehensive testing. We need to look between those cracks to figure out where we can support that student because clearly we've missed something here. And that student is going without. And we need to figure out what it is that they're going without.

Okay. Thank you for that. Because I do feel that a lot of times those students you fall through the cracks and it is a gray area. Yeah. That's a that's a huge issue for for twice exceptional students.

And and two, twice exceptionality, excuse me, is not necessarily always exceptionality in academic achievement. A student can be artistically exceptional. They can be athletically exceptional and still have an area of need or a disability that impacts their education. So there's a lot of areas in which students are often seen either as gifted or as having a disability. And the other one is just completely overshadowed because of their exceptionality.

Oh, you're getting me going with these questions. I love this. Yeah, that was really great. Um, let's I'm going to go back to some of the other questions that came up. Um, what educational advocates do?

What do they do and and why is that role important? And also, I think, uh, one of the questions that I recall asking was, um, is it expensive? Like, is there is there a big fee for when you realize that you do need an educational advocate? Well, I mean, what do what do they do? What don't they do?

It really? So I'm sure, uh, Sarah, you, especially as somebody who's spent a lot of time in a school, you know that whenever a fire comes up in a student's life, somebody's got to put it out. And that's essentially what advocacy is. We, especially at K-Alman Law, we get a lot of parents in crisis that come to us and, you know, their kid is facing expulsion. Their kid, um, has inappropriate programming.

They are being denied for eligibility testing. They, um, maybe have a ton of unexplained, um, disciplinary issues, even though their child has a behavior plan. So whenever we have a parent of a student with a disability come to us and say, this is what's going on, I don't know what to do. I just need somebody to help me. That 's what our advocates do.

They help. So we have a series of scopes that outline, you know, what our services are and what exactly they include. But, you know, when somebody says, what does an advocate do, that's what I would say. I would say they help parents of students with disabilities when they're in need because that's what we do. We might say, you know, yep, we, we're going to help you revise the IEP and we'll do that.

We'll revise the IEP. But really what we're doing is we're making sure that that student has appropriate programming, which then is going to help them make more growth in the classroom, which is going to set them up better later on in life because they have better access to learning. So advocacy has a really important snowball effect. We might be solving a crisis and putting out a fire right now that needs to be put out. But it's got a really long-term effect that a lot of people aren't going to see in the short term because it's like, okay, IEP's fixed.

Check, move on, because our parents of students with disabilities, and I'm sure a lot of listeners might know they've got a lot going on. There is so much going on in special education and in education as a whole. We don't have time to stop and think about the impact that this is going to have past. We solve the problem. Great.

Let's go. So that's what I love about advocacy is that it's, we can solve a problem now, but we know that it's going to have such a long-term effect and that's what makes it so important, is that we are changing lives with advocacy. And if we don't recognize that in the short term, that's okay. But we know that later on down the line, parents are going to be able to look back and they're going to see that change and that's when it's going to pay off. And we love that.

It's like one of the things that I always tried to do was to be an advocate for the parents almost because I always remember thinking one, how intimidating to walk into a room of professionals who I am supposed to, they're the experts, they know, then combine it with all of these like legal terms or like specific terms like SLPs that we love to use, you know, our terminology. We went to school for like to walk into a room not knowing and then we give them procedural safeguards that is painful to read. And then I have to go interpret that, but I probably am not going to read it anyway because it's a little overwhelming. So I did, I always thought like that has got to be such a difficult position for these. My mom talks about my little brother being on an IEP and same thing, she walked into those meetings and was like speechless because she was, she didn't want to say it, she felt dumb and she just trusted them that she had her kid's best interest and so she just nodded in agreement and that like broke my heart.

So I know I always tried to do that, you know, in meetings to make sure these parents felt that but yeah, I mean, I could absolutely see the need for an advocate. I think Chantay had asked too, but that could be expensive, right? Yeah, it is an investment. You know, it's it's not something that comes for free. As much as I wish, you know, there was not a need for me to have a job.

There was not a need for, you know, advocacy services to exist. It is it is an unfortunate side effect of , of, you know, the system that we have right now and that's something that we try to, you know , instill on our consoles is that although it is expensive, it is an investment in your child's future. And if it really truly is necessary, if it is something that must be done, then it's something that we as, you know, our advocates take incredibly seriously and we do to the best of our ability so that you don't need us again. You know, we're not in the habit of making repeat customers out of our clients. We we're trying to guarantee.

We're the warranty. I wish I wish there were any guarantees in life, but our hope is always that you won't need us again. Are there resources maybe at a local level that families could look into that might be slightly less expensive or maybe even free? There are tons of local level resources. Your State Department of Education's website should be full of local level resources.

I know there are also a lot of local or state level groups that are advocacy groups that either may offer pro bono work or at least resources. There may also be parent groups online like Facebook groups and things like that or opportunities like the SLP Summit where you can attend sessions. I definitely recommend looking into, you know, resources online and trying to see, you know, what's out there, what you can navigate. But if it is truly something that you can't navigate and it's become really a dire situation, like we said earlier, there's no shame in asking for help. There are situations where, you know, somebody is needed and Sarah, like you said, if you're just staring down a table full of people and you have no idea what's going on and you're scared to participate , that's not helping anybody.

We have jobs for a reason. So if that's an investment that you 're in a position to make, we're totally proponents of doing it. But if it's not, there are tons of resources out there for parents because it's, I mean, everybody in the country is faced with this decision of, you know, can I do it myself or can I not? And a lot of people recognize that and a lot of people have put resources out there to help parents that are not in a position. And we recognize that as well.

You know, we have our webinars monthly where they're free to register and we talk about, you know, conversations like this and, you know, we do our best to put out, we have blog posts and, you know, things on our website too, to put out information for, you know, people who are not necessarily in a position to retain our services too. Well, definitely add that information to our show notes so that folks can find that easily. I was just going to add too that it is an emotional place to be as a parent. So even if you are familiar with some of this, when it comes to your own child, all that kind of goes out of the window because the emotions of being in this setting and hearing about your child, especially if it's like coming from a deficit based perspective, hearing about all of your child's challenges, it's hard for you to sit there and then take in all this other information and remember what you know about the law and remember about your rights. Sometimes it's just helpful to have another person there to listen and keep you focused.

And then it's also difficult to remember everything that you heard when you go home. If you want to go home and think about it, it's also helpful to have another set of ears just to go back and talk it through with another person and make your decision afterwards. Yeah, and that's such a good point too, especially when you're in a contentious situation. If maybe there's been some non- compliance, you only get one shot at those kinds of things. You know, that's we never recommend, you know, parents file state complaints or due process complaints or things like that on their own because once you have a denial from those types of escalated procedures under your belt, if you've been turned down for those types of things, you know, your school system's not going to take you seriously with the next one.

So that's an excellent point that if, you know, you're in an emotional place and, you know, you're not necessarily in a place where you can retain all of that information and you make a misstep in those types of procedures, that's a really costly thing to do in the long term. So I mean, I don't even, you know, go to meetings alone. I always have my note taker with me because I'm so focused on being present in that moment. So that's a great point. Yeah, and who do you tend to represent more?

Parents or do you ever represent the school district? We represent students. So typically, when our students are under 18, it's the parent that, you know, we work with and who pays us, but we're always operating in the interest of the student. We would love to be able to provide, like, compliance training and resources to schools, but we represent students. But is that would a district ever hire you to if maybe it's, well, I guess, what would the case be?

I think that would be a conflict of interest. If, okay, you know, we would maybe they could would hire us like for a compliance training where we could provide them information and training, but they wouldn't like retain, they wouldn't be able to retain our attorneys. Okay, representation. Yeah, that kind of a thing. Yeah.

Another question that came up was about parent participation and what the requirements are in meetings. They're obviously when we're going through the IEP process, there are different types of meetings. And so one thing that I always question was when there's an annual review meeting, do the parents always have to be present for that? Or maybe you could just break down what the requirements are when it comes to parent attendance for the different types of meetings. So parents have a right to be included in any special education related meeting and schools have a responsibility to do their very, very, very, very, very, very best to get parents to that meeting.

So, you know, if you call home once and the parent doesn't pick up, you can't just say, oh, sorry, they, you know, can't get a hold of mom. They just won't be at the meeting. You know, there has to be documented efforts to get a parent at the meeting. And if you really, truly cannot get a hold of parents, then there are procedures after that to make sure that parents are still informed of what is happened at the meeting, you know, like with a prior written notice and things like that. And that goes for all meetings.

So the annual review, any eligibility meetings, the referral meeting, parents and parental consent and parental input , they've got a right across the board to participate meaningfully under the IDEA in their child special education programming and decision making process. Okay. And when it comes to a child having a speech generating device or an AAC device, the district does purchase. So the district did the evaluation and purchases the device. The district has ownership or does the student own the device.

So the district, if they purchased it, would own the device. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they have total control over the device or that, you know, it can't go home or anything like that. It's going to depend on what was written into the IEP, but what is written into the IEP is kind of above all else. So for example, if, you know, you're seeing an issue with a student not being able to take their AAC device home. If it's written into the IEP, that home use is necessary for that student to make progress towards their goals and to access, you know, their educational curriculum, like for example, an older student maybe needs it to do their homework.

That would not fly if the school says, no, you can't take it home. If it's in the IEP that they can take it home, then they have to be allowed to take it home. So it's going to depend on providing the I EP, right it in the IEP. They should not just have it in school. That won't help them at all.

Yeah. And I know that there are some, you know, I can understand the perspective of the school of those devices can be really expensive and they are, you know, very technologically complex. So they can be very easy to break, especially with our littles. But if that's an accommodation and a tool that a student needs to make progress and they need it at home, then they need it at home. Yeah.

It's simple, but it needs to be documented in the IEP for it to be enforceable. And that's where, you know, our advocates see a lot of that fall through when we have a parent come in. They're like, well, the school is not doing this. And is it in the IEP? Well, no.

Okay, we got to get it in the IEP. Easy. Done. But a lot of the times it's not in the IEP. And so technically the school can get away with not doing it.

Or maybe, you know, the school just doesn't know. We always try not to, you know, place blame. We try to really be collaborative and, you know, put that best foot forward and not assume, you know, malicious intent. But if it's not in the IEP, how is the school supposed to know any better? How is mom and dad not supposed to know any better?

So the IEP , you know, is that that golden rule, if it's in the IEP, we're great. If it's not, we got to put it in the IEP, if it's something that the student needs. And it goes back to what you said earlier about communication and explaining why it's important for them to have the device outside of school, at home, in the community, then it makes sense why it needs to be written in the IEP for them to be able to travel with it. But maybe the parents don't get it. Maybe the teachers and educators in the school don't understand that it needs to go to other places too.

So yeah , I think communicating that and then that driving point, everyone, make sure that it is written in the IEP. So important. Written in the IEP supported with a goal. If that's appropriate, you know, it's it all comes down to what is appropriate for the student and does their documentation reflect that. That's the only way that, you know, an IEP is useful is if it's well constructed and appropriate.

What about the extended school year? Typically the IEP covers that as well, right? And so you should include anything that you want to occur during extended school year program in that IEP as well. Yes. So the extended school year program is based upon the students IEP and the progress that they're making towards their IEP goals or maybe lack thereof if we're facing a regression over the summer.

If we would, you know, not make enough progress or if we would regress or maybe if we're on the cusp of retaining a skill and going without further instruction over the summer would cause them to not retain that skill. Those types of things, whatever's in the IEP is what they're going to continue working on over ESY. So that's an important thing, especially if you're you know, just finishing up your annual maybe in like May or early June. That's an important thing to keep in mind as well is how would this impact ESY? Okay.

That was a tricky one. I remember in terms of like the data to make that decision. It's easy if you had data in May and you come back in August and they've progressed, you know, like significantly, then you have that information, but sometimes it's tricky to make that determination. And I always felt like it was like it should only be for like the most complex individuals, you know what I mean? Some states see it that way.

You know, the IDEA, it outlines for more than that , it outlines for social emotional and for behavior, but some states have narrowed it so far that it really is only for the most extreme cases. And some states, you know, or some districts only have it available at one facility, which limits the number of students that might qualify or might be able to safely be in that building. And it really, it's tricky. It's tricky in a lot of places . Yeah.

There was a question I just saw too that made me go back to what or think about what you had said earlier about you represent the student. And I thought this was interesting and I'm curious if it will come up more and more with kind of our shift in thinking when it comes to neurodiversity and how to support students. So if a student wants to refuse services, like would you advocate on their behalf, you know, so the IEP team, the parents are pushing for like goals for social communication or whatever, it may be in the students like, I'm good. Yeah. You don't want to work on this.

Yeah. So does it ever come up? Because that's another kind of challenging thing that I think may be popping up a little more often. That is really interesting. Middle school and high school students, I do think.

Yeah, I mean, we do have some cases where our client is actually the student because they are 18. So in that case, it really is, you know, only the student's voice that we can take into consideration. But we definitely, with our older students when it's appropriate, we'd love to hear from them. I've done consultations where, you know, it has been, you know, mom and the middle school student on the phone and mom's like, okay, what do you think about that? You heard what she said.

You know, it all comes down like we said to data drive decisions . If the student is on it with that data, I wouldn't see why not, right? If what they're feeling and thinking is aligning with the data that says it's appropriate for them, we love to hear from the actual person that these decisions are impacting. But that is that is really such an interesting concept to think of. Yeah.

You know, and I feel like that's something that gets lost in schools a lot is like, you know, we're all tracking our data. We're talking to parents. We're talking to other teachers. But the kid gets lost sometimes in that shuffle. Yeah.

Like that is a person who is being impacted by our decisions. Are we listening to them? Are we hearing them? Are we taking their wants into consideration? Or just what the data says they need?

Oh, I love that. I know. It is a data that are kind of we've got some shifting views over these last several years on the topic of stuttering. What a ball of value for an IEP in the schools because you require my, you know , support of intervention. But the student is a stutterer, proudly doesn't need doesn't want to work on any of the strategies or skills comfortable with themselves.

It's not impacting their ability to be in the classroom and socialize or communicate. So it's a very interesting, especially sometimes it's kind of pushing for these things, you know, but yeah, it was just curious. A colleague that worked with high school students mostly. And some of her students had been in speech since pre K kindergarten working on speech sounds. And when they got to high school, they would say, like, I don't, I don't want to come to speech anymore.

And so she would always take that into consideration. And she would tell them, you know, well, I have to talk to your parents about it, but I will note that I think in almost every case, the parents were okay with stopping. And so she was able to honor the students wishes. But I'm curious to, like, in if there were ever a scenario where parents said, no, you need to keep going, would the student, because technically they're a minor, would the dishes be honored or not? And I think I'm thinking like maybe the data would show that they're reaching a plateau because they're more motivated or invested in the therapy.

So would that be enough for the the clinician, the SLP in this instance to say, I 'd like to discharge my student because they're they're not making additional progress. And they are no longer interested in working on their school. And I mean, that makes me think too, especially with our like middle school and high school aged kids, is it just the stigma of being someone , you know, who goes to speech or who, you know, has accommodations that is making them want to stop ? Or is it because they really truly feel like they've gotten everything out of it? And that's when we really do have to take a closer look at that data and take that, you know, feeling that the students having into consideration and look at it in that light and really decide what does the data say when we've got this in the back of our mind?

Are they really reaching a plateau? Or are they just afraid of how it's going to make them look? Are they just scared of of being stigmatized? And then that's a really tough conversation that we've got to have with parents so that they can have with their kids, you know, if the answer is, no, they really do still need this, but I know they 're scared. Yeah, it comes down to communication again, like you said, the very beginning of all the rest.

Those are things I would have with the student. If it's appropriate, obviously they're middle school, high school age, you know, and they're refusing to participate. They won't come, you know, and I still find value there. Or I actually understand where the students coming from, but now I need to communicate that to the parents maybe in a different way than it has been. Yeah, it's the communication piece.

And I think sometimes that gets lost. One, everybody's busy, but two, you know, I think it's that like conflict avoidance. A lot of being a provider is being a mediator, isn't it? And a counselor. Yeah.

We had another question that we somewhat answered, but I just thought about a more nuanced thought related to the question. If a student has autism and the parents want executive function support from the SLP, but the student refuses services, could you request outside services? Could you request it be held outside of the school setting? So that's really going to depend on, you know, what the programming has determined is appropriate and how much has been exhausted. My first recommendation would be, you know, within the school setting, you know, have we really tried to exhaust everything?

Has the student just caught on, you know, that we're trying to achieve a certain skill and they're just being stubborn? And can we try to present it in a different way, you know, differentiation? If we've really exhausted differentiation, then and the data still shows, you know, they're not making progress because they're refusing. Then we might have a case to advocate for a change in placement or that service or a change in location. But, you know, jumping from point A to point B, it's not like an overnight type of a thing.

There is a pretty long road, especially when we're talking outside services, because although idea does not consider cost legally defensible, it is something that is at the forefront of everyone's mind in a school district. Money does not grow on trees. We recognize that. And outside services are costly, especially if you already have internal services because the school employs an SLP or employs other related service providers. So my recommendation would be to exhaust all internal services first with differentiation or maybe if you've got multiple providers in the school switching providers, trying that child with every one of them.

And then if you've really exhausted all of the internal options, that's when you would, you know, have a like to stand on to say, listen, we have tried everything and he's not making progress. What other options can we consider? Because at the end of the day, it comes down to are we making progress or not? And if we're not making progress, something's got to give. Okay.

Yeah. So we've been chatting about so many different topics. And there have been really great takeaways from this conversation. I think the listeners will be able to walk away with a lot more information and understanding about advocacy and how it all works. Are there any tips that you have for educators or SLPs and other therapists for how to use the data in advocacy immediately?

Oh, oh, I love that. I mean, my biggest tip is if you notice something and you've got the data to support it, say something. A lot of the comments, you know, I remember seeing from the live session was, you know, I've got this situation going on and I've got the data and I, you know, what do I do about it? Or I've been denied this over and over. What do I do about it?

If you've got the data to back that up, reconvene the IEP team or tell the parents so they can reconvene the IEP team. You can use your data only if you say something. So you can look for patterns in your data. You can look for a lack of pattern in your data, right? Like if we're plateauing and if you are analyzing your data regularly and you're noticing concerns or if you're noticing concerns, go back and look at your data for a pattern, right?

Correlating your data with your concerns is the way that your data is going to be able to make change but the only way you're going to be able to make change is if you advocate, if you actually speak up and say something and I know that's like the scariest couple of words you constrain together, especially when this is your livelihood and this is your job, it's sometimes, I know, you know, not everyone works in the perfect world where you feel supported to say something and to rock the vote but if that's a position that you're in, say something and if it's not, call somebody like us so that we can say something for you because data is only as effective as the statement behind it and the person pushing it. So that's what you can do now is you can say something about the concerns that you're seeing with your data or you can bring it to somebody who can if you can. That's perfect, perfect tip and what about for families? Do you have any suggestions for families who are preparing for meetings, how they can advocate for themselves and for their student? No, you're right.

So the procedural safeguards that we've been mentioning here and there, those are totally available to you on your state's department of education website. They may be even available on your district's website. They have to be made available to you by your IEP team prior to your meeting. You have a right to your students' data and their records and everything like that and you have a right to it in a timely manner before your meeting, especially if you've got concerns that need to be addressed at the meeting, request that data. You know, if you've got concerns that your student isn't making progress or you 've been seeing new behaviors, new needs, ask for the data that your school team is going to be making decisions off of and ask for it in advance of your meeting so that you can study it so that you can bring meaningful insights to the table so that you can be an advocate for your student or so you can call somebody like us if you are not, you know, comfortable with analyzing data like that.

But you have rights and the only way that you can exercise them is if you know them and they are available to you or they should be made available to you. In your native language, if you are not an English speaker and there's, you know, there's honestly no reason that your school shouldn't be making these types of things available to you or that this is coming as, you know, some kind of shock because this is really the bare minimum that I'm telling you right now. But check your state rules and regs, check your district website for policies, talk to your case manager, talk to your IEP team and go in with an open mind because although we all want what's best for a student and we all want appropriate programming, what that might look like could be very different once we get to the table and really start talking about the data than what we might think it is before we get to the table. So have that open line of communication, go in ready to be collaborative and just be an advocate. Yeah, I like Sarah also always felt like I was there to support the families more so than the district.

And I always wanted to make sure that parents knew that they were such an important and vital part of the team. They are. Yeah, I think that what you just said was so important even down to asking for documents ahead of time so you can go and prepare. You could see when people get things right in front of them like there's no time for me to read this report for time and now you're expecting me to comment on it. So those were fantastic tips that you offered for parents and caregivers.

And just remember that your input is vital. You're the expert on your kid. Yes, I say that all the time. Yes, you are the extra in your kid. Yeah, yeah.

So Chris, I want to thank you for your time and for this conversation. I think what you brought to the summit was incredible and this was a great way to carry on and extend that. So thank you again for everything that you've offered here today. We will definitely put in our show notes how folks can get in touch with you and your firm and the resources that you mentioned as far as the weekly the monthly webinars and other resources that are offered for families. And if you're looking to learn more, please do visit the Bright Ideas be the brightest.com website.

We have some new courses in our library that will help you with writing IEPs and making sure that they are neuroaffirming and making sure that you have a good understanding of the nuances when it comes to your students in neurodiversity and providing appropriate intervention and goal writing. So check that out at our website. We have more conversations coming. Thank you Sarah for joining me today as a co-host. It was great.

I loved it. It was a really good conversation. We could keep going. But be sure to subscribe and you can listen to us on wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And again, thank you, Krystal, for your knowledge and your expertise and your passion when it comes to supporting our students.

Thank you for having me. I've had such a great time and like I said, I love talking about this. I could keep going but I'll stop. I feel the same way. I think my favorite things to talk about are IEPs, data, advocacy, like all of those things are available.

Talk about it. But yeah, it was awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you ladies. Thank you.

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