Late Diagnosis, Autism Advocacy, and Neuroaffirming Practices

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Transcript of “Late Diagnosis, Autism Advocacy, and Neuroaffirming Practices” – Bright Conversations Podcast

Hello and welcome to another episode of Bright Conversations. I am Chantay Glover-Jones, your host, and I am the CE Administrator for Bright Ideas Media, the sponsor of this podcast. Today, I am very excited to have a conversation with a person I've had the pleasure of chatting with a few times offline, and I can't wait to introduce all of you to her. Annie Huff is a late diagnosed autistic and ADHD military spouse. She is a therapist and an advocate.

She empowers families to navigate special education and train schools on neuro affirming practices. She serves on the boards of PDA North America and Sisters with awesome AUSOME, awesome children. She champions the rights and well-being of neurodivergent learners. Thanks for being here today, Destiny. Yes, thank you for having me.

My pleasure. I cannot wait to chat with you and talk about all the things because you have a wealth of knowledge and experience. And I do want to start right off the bat with talking about being late diagnosed yourself. So let's chat about your experience as being neurodivergent and how you came to your diagnosis. Yeah, so my oldest son entered into the public school system undiagnosed and he had been in to have two sons and he had been in care.

So I like to make that and I'm like he'd been in child care structured settings since he was six weeks old. And I wasn't being a military spouse. It was like, you know, we moved to different places. So he had those transitions in there, you know, whether he wanted them there or not. And we saw like perfectionistic thinking and black or white thinking, you know, the struggles with modeling something.

The teacher would do it getting very frustrated because it didn't exactly look the same way. And so starting his school, we were like, hey, let's get this, you know, let's get him support. And his teacher was amazing. Administration was not. And we had to, we were in a predominantly white area.

So we had to seek out a black psych, clinical psychologist and educational psychologist. And they diagnosed him as autistic. And the thing that sparked a light bulb for me was that everyone knew me and my son were two sides of the same coin. We were just the same people. We thought the same.

We operated the same. A lot of times he, when he would get frustrated, he would be like, mommy, you 're the only one that understands me or gets me. And so when he received his diagnosis, it's like, wait a minute. Like, that does that mean I'm autistic? And so thankfully we moved and we got him in a better school setting and environment.

I was very supportive and got him what he needed. And then I think because that stress calmed down and we didn't have to be as anxious or ramped up and worried, I was like, okay, I'm going to seek out this diagnosis myself. And so I sought out a female practitioner that understood how autism would present and girls and females. And then I received my formal diagnosis of autism and ADHD. And so the thing for me was that I had a lot of the things that we get diagnosed with.

So my freshman year of college, I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression. My sophomore year of college, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. And so I had dealt with those on and off throughout my life since I was 17, you know, formally diagnosed anyway. And anytime I would go on an anti-depressant, and this is actually part of like your, I don't know, exclusive or whatever you want to call it. Actually, I was sharing this part of my story before.

It would help because of the anxiety. Like I know I have the anxiety there for sure. But looking back, I was in burnout and thought I was, everyone thought I was having a depressive episode. And so the anti-depressant wouldn't tackle that. Yes, we know it's chemical.

And so I think it got that like dopamine hit, right? But I always wondered why it took a combination of, because I would do the talk therapy during those periods. It took a lot of coping skills and managing to come out of it. And so whenever anyone asked me like, why did you seek out a diagnosis? It was because I wanted to understand myself better.

And I always say that has to be a personal choice. That has to be something that you choose to do. And so if that's, and I talked about it with my husband and I talked about it with my family because I was just letting them know like, and they know I'm strong willed. So they was like, I'm doing this. And they were like, okay, cool.

And then they've been very accepting. So that's my long winded way of giving how I got to where I got. Yeah. And your story is not too uncommon in that it is often for late diagnosed women . It is often our children who lead us down that path of self discovery and self exploration and recognizing that a lot of what I see in my child, I identify in myself too.

So that in that aspect, it is not uncommon. But I'm curious too. Did you find that getting your diagnoses helped to shape your identity in a different way, considering that you did have this history of being diagnosed with depression and anxiety and understanding maybe the way that you navigated the world prior to knowing all of this about yourself? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I know that I did a lot of the perseverating, you know, so kind of, you know, having a thought and struggling to let it go. But as things got quote unquote better, I struggled with accessing therapy because what do I have to be depressed about? What do I have to be, you know, sad about? Everything's going great. I have a roof over my head, I have food in my stomach, I have friends, I have a supportive family.

And that's something I really work with on my therapy clients as therapists if like, that doesn't mean you can't be depressed or you can't be anxious or you can't be burnt out. And so I think for me learning about autistic and ADHD burnout, learning how that impacts you the depletion of your battery, the depletion of your capacity, just the inability to do it because the world is not built for neurodivergent individuals. And because we can get very focused on our special interests or our hyper fix ations and then not have the capacity and coupling that with being a mother. I think that all of that really reframed for me what I'm able to do as a parent , what I'm able to do as a professional, but also more importantly it gave me the ability to say like, it's okay to accommodate myself. It's okay to take breaks.

It's okay to tell clients like, I'm available to me this week because even though I did have this day, that's wide open to schedule, I want that to be a paperwork day or an off day for me to relax. And I think finding out my diagnosis helped me feel comfortable accommodating and not feeling like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just do? And I feel like now it's like, well, I know what's wrong. It's I don't have the capacity.

I don't have the battery that, you know, my brain is wired differently when it comes to certain things. So for me, it was very, it very much shaped how I view the world that very much shapes how I parent, very much shapes how I interact with others as well. Yeah, yeah. I do want to take the chance the opportunity to just mention in case you're listening and not watching this video that Destiny is a black woman as am I. And there are different nuances when it comes to receiving a diagnosis for black families, whether it's black children or black adults, and some of the things that might look like the expectation for a black woman are actually masking your neurodivergence.

And so I'll just share briefly, we talked before about how it is important to make sure that you're finding a provider who is listening to you and understand it, understands maybe some of the cultural differences that may exist when you're dealing with a black family versus a non black family. And so it might mean that it is a black practitioner. It might mean that it is not. And in my case, I found the support that I needed in someone who was not black, the first person I saw was a black woman, but because of what she knew and understood, I didn't fit the picture of a person who could be neurodivergent. And so I just felt like she didn't understand me.

And because I have the privilege of searching for different practitioners, because I know that sometimes it's difficult for folks to, and I don't want to gloss over that , but I also knew I needed help. So I did seek out other professionals and I was able to find the support I needed for me with a white male and a white woman. It's going to be different for case by case situation, but I do want to point out that, and you talked about it earlier with your son, and I know we'll get back to that later in the conversation too, that there are definite differences when it comes to cultures, when it comes to even just families and how people parent and raise their children. If you are, if you are a rule follower, if you grow up in a household where you know, you cannot deviate from what you are told to do, you're going to figure out a way to do that in spite of the way your brain is wired. So I just wanted to talk a little bit about that too, because if you are listening and you are wondering what do they mean, it's because there is a little bit of a difference there when we break down cultural and ethnic backgrounds.

Yes, absolutely. And I always tell people it's what fits with the time. I mean when I was 17 and in college and I started counseling, I started at the college counseling center. I went to Georgia Southern, that was my almond water for undergrad. And my counselor was a white male, and when I tell you he was exactly what I needed.

He gave me the comfort to be open, to talk about what I needed to do, to talk to my parents, to get the support that I needed about everything going on. And I've always been really close to my parents. So it wasn't that. It was just I was, I'm the oldest child. I left the house of 17 because I was when I graduated high school.

I started school early already. I could graduate when I was 16. So I grew up with my parents. They know this, I always say this. My mom had me at 18.

She got married at 17, had me at 18. Wow. I grew up with my parents. And so my brain is very different from my sisters. We're three and a half years apart.

She always says like I'm her second mom. And so, you know, he was what I needed at that time. And then when I got to grad school, I went back to therapy at a black woman. She was what I needed at the time. So, you know, and actually my practitioner with the diagnosis was a white woman .

So you know, it's just really depends on their knowledge, their understanding, and just their approach. Yeah, and we all are learning so much more about autism as we go and ADHD for that matter day by day. So it is all about a person who's open to learning and doesn't have a rigid mindset when it comes to diagnosing and meeting people where they are today. So I'm going to switch and talk about the challenges and the joys of parenting neurodivergent children when you yourself are also neurodivergent. And you mentioned that you have two sons and your experience started with your oldest son as he was navigating the public school system.

Yes. So I have two sons and one of them is autistic. One of them is ADHD in the speech delay. And my experience with my oldest and him navigating school led to me being very proactive with my youngest, getting him the IEP before he even entered into school because we already knew about the speech delay. I think that the parenting side of things was during our struggles with our oldest son's school that first year, which is during his kindergarten year, I had a period of burnout and I had to tell we so he went to school on the base.

We lived off the base. I got to the point where I couldn't leave the base because I was afraid they were going to call me from the school and they would. One time I waited in the parking lot for an hour. I finally left the parking lot. They called me five minutes later.

And so when I went through this period of burnout, I then told my husband like, I need them to call you like they can't call me because what would happen was I would like have days off. So the job was working at the time, you can work your 40 hours, however you see fit and then you're off once you work your 40 hours. So I would try and be off early on Fridays or whatever. And I had to tell him like you need to take phone calls because, and again, I didn't know I was going to burnout at the time. I just thought I was just super anxious and stressed, but I was like struggling to eat, struggling to sleep, struggling to get out of that.

You know, like pushing myself to get up and do things. And I think that is the thing that is very interesting. I read somewhere that they were like the reason why so many parents figure out after their children are diagnosed is because parenting brings out all of your traits that you were able to mask when you didn't have kids. And I was like, I think that is very true because I was always like, I love my sleep. That's always particular about what I ate.

I was always rigid about certain things. And then I have kids and it's like, now I run on someone else's schedule. Someone else's time, you're going to make messes or you're going to need things or things you're not going to go the way I think that they should go. And so what's interesting though is that when my second son came, it really was a shock to the system because he is our firecracker and our oldest is our role follower , right? So I give people the example of them.

I oldest like we would put up the Christmas tree and we did the whole thing because it's your first, you baby proof the whole house. And my oldest was like, he'd go over something like, don't touch that. And he'll like, okay, so I'm not going to touch it. Yep. Set my tree up.

Don't touch that. So he doesn't touch the tree. The second one comes, we have a baby gate around the tree. He throws things behind the baby gate and then tells you he needs to get it so that he can get it and get to the tree. You see what I mean?

Yeah. He really shook things, but I think the interesting thing was that I feel like a lot of neurodivergent parents who have neurodivergent children struggle with is I found myself really accommodating my son and eventually really accommodating his brother but not accommodating myself. And so I would experience a lot of anger and frustration and irritability because I am accommodating them and not accommodating myself. And so one of the things I've always done with my children is I've always talked to them like they were adults since they were younger, always. I've always had conversations with them.

I told people, no baby talk. So they have a very large vocabulary. And so one of the things I was able to do because of that though was to then say like, Mommy's tired. Mommy needs a break. Like mommy is relaxing.

Like you can come lay next to mommy if you're also going to relax. They love to lay in the bed next to me in the evening time. So but I've been able to tell them like this is how I'm accommodating myself. The other thing is I've always made sure to tell once we got our son's diagnosis, we have always talked to him about it. We have always been open about their diagnoses, my diagnoses, my husband's also ADHD found that out later in life as well.

So we have always been open about it and educating them on it. And I think that has given them a sense so that when each other irritates each other, they're able to say like, Oh, that's this or that's that or you're responding that way because of this. Because it is. They're thinking in this way that they're feeling that is a lot of times navigating their responses to things. Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. I so much of your life mirrors ours here too because my our oldest is a rule follower. And I always say to her, you tricked me. You made me think that this mommy hood thing was easy. And then the youngest one is spicy.

That's what I always said. Like she came out the womb spicy. She challenges everything. And the same thing like, you know, we didn't have to ever worry about the Christmas tree or the ornaments, but that one, she was going to go touch and go feel and see because she needed to explore. And if we gave her a look like, you know, don't touch that gave her a look, then she's looking back like this is what we're doing.

We're looking at each other. So it definitely challenges the way that you parent because you can't parent them the same way. And what works for one doesn't work for the other, but then also like you said, recognizing what you need so that you're not trying to pour from an empty cup. And I also had to learn to be super open and say like, I'm overwhelmed. Just like I teach you to tell people when you're overwhelmed and you need a break.

I tell them like, I'm overwhelmed. I'm going to go. I need to time out. I'm going to go away and I'll be back in a minute, even if it's just 10 minutes outside or something. But it's important if you're modeling what you're also wanting them to be able to do for themselves and empowering them with that language.

So it's definitely been a learning process for all of us as we go. But I do think it's so important that we recognize that. And oftentimes we don't give ourselves permission to take a rest or to be tired or to be frustrated or to be angry or to experience grief because what you expected to happen is not happening. And it's okay. That was something I had to learn.

It's okay to do absolutely nothing. It's okay to not be starting a new business or writing another book or you know , sharing the parent group or whatever. It's okay to be and we have to take away those notions of, oh, you're being lazy because you're not being productive. A lot of that that was ingrained in us. We have to shift away from that and rest is fine.

Rest is perfectly fine and it's necessary. So you talked a bit about how you're managing all of the things, you know, managing your expectations for your school and for your children's schooling and also family. How did your family respond to like outside of your husband? How did your family all respond to the news that your son was autistic, that you are autistic because at least for your parents and your sister, obviously the person that they knew they didn't define her that way. So I'm curious how was that news all received?

So with my son, my mother and sister are both educators and so they kind of, I guess, had I learned later, had suspected my son was autistic in the kind of stereotypical gifted view way because, you know, and my mom was like, they had her and my sister had conversations I guess about it and they didn't know how to broach it with me because they were like he has such a large vocabulary and he knows so many things and what stops them, which is ironic, would always be, but that's how destiny was. So they were like, maybe that's just how, you know what I mean? And so there was no, you know, they didn't say anything, but once we brought it to them, my mom was like, me and my sister have actually thought that since he was like two. Wow. And I was like, oh, but they were like, again, he wasn't presenting in the way they thought.

Like we all had a very stereotypical view of what autism works like. And so they were like, so maybe not, but they were like, he's so bright. Like, you know, so that was kind of interesting, but they did go through a grieving period because we essentially had like, I was calling it almost like an emotional regression. In the sense that he went from like, he gave everyone a hug. You told me give him a hug, he gave him a hug.

You told him give him a kiss, he gave him a kiss. Like he did that to like, recognizing like, I don't want to. I'm not going to. So and what didn't help was that at the time when we got his back, so we went from living about two and a half hours or three and a half hours from my parents, maybe to another state. So I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I was like, I'm seeing my babies every month. And his job allowed him to do that. It didn't allow my mom or my sister to do that. So he was able to come see them every month. And so even his interaction with them was different than it was with my mom and my sister.

Okay. And my dad is very like, you get you, you know, you get what you give me. I take like, he's not, you know, like he's very like it is what it is. And he was getting that love still because that's Opa. And I see him all the time and that's their favorite person.

Okay. My mom and my sister, it was a really big adjustment. And even my grandmother, who's their great grandmother, it went to like high five or, you know, like, but no, like, hug or kissing. And it took some while to get back there with my mom. And then with my sister, they still like, they've come up with their own, like, can I hand shake and stuff like that, but it's still a process.

I feel like, um, cause I can imagine that that was hurtful for them. Right. And then I know, um, and a lot of black families, that's what you're supposed to do when you greet somebody, like it's this one that you don't give a, a, a Gloria, a hug. And so, but there's, there's that, but then there's also you want to respect his bodily autonomy. So how did you, how do you navigate the two?

Did you, and it sounds like you, your family's accepting what he wants to give until he gets to the point of view. Okay. So the difference, the difference here is, and that's when we go back to that, like the call was coming from inside the house. Um, I was like that. I was very like, now I am so the way I would say I'm not a hugger.

Okay. By any means, but I tend to have huggers in my life. A lot of my best friends are huggers, a lot of friends for huggers. And so I kind of was like, we're cool. So you can hug me, right?

Okay. That wasn't as bad for me, but like my thing would be kisses. I'm not big on like, like, and my sister's going to be like, of course you told everybody this, but she's like, it's well known. Like she gets to give me like maybe two kisses on the cheek of your. Okay.

Okay. I don't do the kissing. I don't do hugs all the time. I've always been like that. So when it came to my son, it was more of a hurt because he had been doing it and then it felt like a regression.

But it was like they were immediately like, Oh, so he's just like you. And then on top of that, my mom and dad, I always give them credit for this. They have always been like me, my sister have this saying because we've always been like the youngest ones in the room professionally, if my parents don't talk to me like that, you're not going to talk to me like that. Because our parents have always been respectful in that way. And so that carries over to everything and they're fiercely protective of me and my sister.

It's just the two of us. And so I think what helped is that I always knew that if I was like, he doesn't like that, my parents would be like, she said he doesn't like that. That helps. And I know that's not everyone's dynamic. My family, my mom and my dad's family, they have a lot of family and we're engaged with all of them.

So like we see them and things like that. They have always been very respectful. And so all of that really helps. I think I definitely have that dynamic where yes, you do give a hug and a kiss to everyone. Don't get me wrong.

That's how I grew up. Like grandma, great, great aunt, great uncle, you give everybody a hug. But at the same time, if it was like, I don't want to, that was respected as well. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, that's beautiful though that you know that your family, extended family included are going to respect what you want for you and for your children. Because like you said, not everyone has a dynamic, but I love that that they are so supportive and understanding. Because it is kind of new, you know, for a lot of folks. So being adaptable to those changes. I want to switch over and talk a bit about your experience about special education.

And you know, we're in this time right now where things are very fluid, changing all the time. We're hearing on a national level, some very disturbing things when it comes to autism. And views of autistic people coming from the current administration. And even at a local level though, there's still a lot of challenges when it comes to special education for children who attend public school and some private schools as well. So what has been, let's talk first about what your role has been as an advocate working in special education or dealing with service providers?

Yeah, so like I said, I actually, I would still got tripped and fell into advocacy to be honest. I, even when I do my consults, I tell my families, I'm a mental health professional by trade. That was what I always wanted to do. So I wanted to be an educator when I was younger. And my mother is an educator, she was like, no.

I think she knew like my capacity even before I did, to be honest. So she, because my sister became an educator and she like supported and helps. That's very interesting. I have to talk to her about that one day, but she goes back to what we said about parenting your children differently. She saw something different in you than she saw in your sister.

Yes, because she, and I'm like, I don't think I've never asked her about them. I've asked her about that. She literally was like, no, find something else to do. I was like, okay. And so I took a psych class, my senior year of high school, and I was going to be a therapist.

And then so that just led that journey from there. And so I worked in the early childhood elementary, middle and high school setting as a mental health therapist. I've worked as a reintegration case manager for youth and foster care. I've worked with youth in the juvenile justice systems. I have done the gambit.

And my son entered into the school system, us being military and knowing we're going to have to move. I was like, I have to learn this. And we actually had an advocate at the time support us that was on the base we lived at. And she was like, you got this, mama. Like you absolutely have the tools to do this once you are, you know, not in this heightened state, right?

Because I'm just in this emotionally heightened state where I was like, I can't read through the things and be this rational person I need to be right now. Because I feel like they're coming from a child. And so I became an advocate and I just searched out any trainings I could, any programs, any organizations. And so as my role, I attend IP meetings and help families advocate during their IP meetings. I help them write letters.

Some families I attend IP meetings, some families I just review their IPs and provide feedback. And then I also provide trainings for schools and organizations and parent organizations. I've had companies reach out before they're like, hey, we have a big parent group that has children in special education and we would love for you to do training for them. So and I try to get as many conferences as I can. So that's how I support families in special education.

I will say that there's a significant difference between the current administration of the last one and the approach for disability. So there was an entire task force with the last administration. I actually was invited to the White House lawn. So I was there for the American Disabilities Act celebration that they had. And so that was amazing.

I was invited to the White House. Fortunately, I could not go and attend, but my husband was able to go because he had a conference up there. So you know, I think though that laid the platform for what special education can look like. It laid the groundwork for what, you know, our politicians can do to support it . And I think that's what's really, you know, handling the landscape now.

That's what really has everyone lobbying and advocating now to support it. Did you notice with schools, did you notice any patterns for where folks needed more support? I'm just curious if there were a certain type of student that often needed more support and advocating for their services as opposed to others. I guess I guess what I'm leaning towards. I tend to think that we are more willing to give students support after they've already shown that they are struggling.

Or visibly struggling academically. And the students who seem to have more significant or profound impairments. So I'm just curious if you noticed that pattern specifically in your experience . 100%. When you started talking about that, my mind immediately went to one, high mask ing learners.

I support a lot of families where the learner is doing very well. Let me back up for people who aren't familiar with the high masking term. So you know, masking is when neurodivergent learners are essentially seem like they're doing well. So a lot of times in school, this can look like them going to class, following the routine, following the structures. There's no behavior issues, no concerns.

And you know, they might have really good grades or their grades of behavior are considered developmentally appropriate. So it's like, oh, they're not struggling with anything that their peers are not struggling with. Then the parent is reporting at home, they're having issues getting them to school. The learners having issues sleeping, they're melting down when they're getting home from school. They're needing to do a lot of regulation with sensory when they're coming home .

And so what happens is those learners are going into a school day in a school system, a school schedule that is not built for them. However, they have learned to walk the walk. They have learned to be compliant. They have learned to do the thing that you need them to do, whatever the thing is. I call it the thing with quotes around it.

And the parents are dealing with the impact of that. What happens for those learners though, is that eventually the school will end up with the impact of that. Whether it is through the learner being unable to access the school setting, whether they start seeing dysregulation in the school setting, whether the learner starts asking to leave school early, constantly being in the nurse's office, or they start seeing other types of dysregulation that comes in the form of what's considered a health behavior or shutting down. I'm going to say that's the biggest theme I see in I support families in all states with all types of categories for eligibility for special education. And that is the biggest thing I see is the high masking.

The other one is that one of the categories I dislike the most is the emotional disturbance category or emotional behavioral disturbance category. Because that category was put in place to categorize anxiety and depression, oppositional defined disorder, which is a diagnosis I don't agree with, conduct disorder. It's basically a catch-all for all of that. So what happens is a lot of our learners, especially our black and brown learners, especially our black and brown male learners can get categorized under that when they, for their anxiety and or autism and or ADHD, instead of other health impairment. And what I'm coming across too is that a lot of our schools, it's a, it's a fine line between other health impairment and ED or EBD.

And so anytime, and I've actually come across it twice this year, particularly in the last few months, where I was like, other health impairment it is. And I specifically stated for the record because I do not like labeling our black and brown children as ED or EBD. So those would be the two things for me. High masking in that ED, EBD category. Yeah, yeah.

I have definitely seen a lot of students who ends up in that ED or EBD category . And then that's where you see a lot of the suspensions that occur, even though they shouldn't be. And then eventually looking for another type of placement for them for school when that's not really what they needed. And it does go back again to who are the people that are doing your assessments and your diagnoses and how much information they have. And looking beyond the traditional categories and thinking outside of the box.

So I think that that's something that we see often and I haven't shared this completely publicly, but Destiny and I have talked about my daughter being a high masking learner. And that's something that we've been experiencing and dealing with all this year a little bit, I noticed some last year. And because of the fact that she is what you would consider a model student you don't have difficulty with, they don't see any of the things that we experienced by the time she comes home from school and she's totally dysregulated. She does need that time to do whatever her body needs at that time, sensory wise, to get herself back to her baseline. We do have difficulties with getting her to school in the morning and we did start getting the the text from the bathroom.

And can you pick me up early because she doesn't want to stay in school or the calls from the nurse that she has a headache or stomach ache. And it is it's a difficult place to sit in as a parent because the school administration thinks that you as a parent are inventing a problem that doesn't exist. They think that the student is being manipulative when the fact of the matter is that there's something else that's going on and imagine if you had to sit at work or college wherever you might be all day long the amount of energy that it takes to be able to conform and exist in the space. Like you said, that's not really designed for you. At some point you are going to hit that wall and for us, she's been able to do it for the school day.

By the time she gets picked up, it's a wrap, it's over and because they don't see it, they don't believe that it exists. So it does take a lot of conversations and advocacy and fighting for the support in the school system so that you get less of that at home. And I think that a lot of black and brown girls and females are often high mask ing because that's what the expectation is for you to do to perform well in school and you don't want to break that role. And I will say too, I'll even say like, I would actually say with my experience as supporting families though, I would say that high masking just goes across for girls in general. I think that how it presents and how it's perceived is definitely differently, culturally though.

I feel like sometimes there is that bias or prejudice or stereotype. And so I feel like a lot of times black and brown girls that are high masking, it can provide the perception of it can come off as irritability or anger sometimes when they start to melt down or shut down or when they start just using that shutdown, start to melt down because of their capacity, whereas our non black and brown counterparts, it can come as shut down. And so a lot of times there's a lot more receptiveness to that and to, well, let's figure out how to support and the black and brown meltdown of becoming quote unquote verbally aggressive because I don't have the capacity as seen as a threat. Yeah, treated as punishment. So I think that is what I would say across the two dimensions where we start to see.

And I see a lot more understanding for our male neurodivergent learners when they lose that capacity, there has been more punishment for black and brown males because they become aggressive in going into that fight stage. And their non black and brown counterparts might go into that flight stage and flight while a safety risk doesn't feel like as much of a threat to the person as the fight that does. Yeah, yeah, 100% agree with you there. In an ideal situation, what do you think schools would look like for what to support neurodivergent learners? I think one of the biggest things is one, I used to provide a bunch of free trainings and I have had way more IEP meetings and so I kind of got away from it, just like a monthly free training.

I mean, I say that because a lot of educators will attend. That's the thing that gets missed is that educators want training on how to support neurodivergent learners, they really do. And so the issue is access. The issue is the district planning the PDs and doing what they think is necessary. I know I've talked to many educators who are like, if I get one more training on how to do standardized testing, I'm going to lose it.

Like how do I address these behaviors in my classroom? So they are losing teachers and droves, yes, because of pay, but also because of a lack of support and part of that support is educating them on how to support what they're coming across. Everyone says, you know, this is not the same school that I was in 10, 15 years ago and it's not. It's not because we are actually getting diagnoses, we're actually becoming more aware of what learners need and we're recognizing that we should be accommodating that environment. Because we should accommodate that environment, that means the environment is not accommodating.

And so you have these environments tonight and I've been to several conferences where we've had older gentlemen talk and I will never forget, I was at the Autism and Black conference two years ago and this grandfather was speaking and his son is autistic and ADHD and he said, I need ADHD. He said he figured it out because he said when he couldn't focus, he would just get told to go in the hallway. So back in my day, you just went in the hallway. He was like, I had friends that were clearly, there was something going on. He's like, I don't know if he's learning disability, I don't know what, but they would just get class because they weren't getting the help they needed or you're talking too much in the classroom and you can't sit down and then get out of my classroom.

He was like, so... You get to get to the principal's office. You just get excluded. Right. And so he was like, and I thought that was such a profound statement because of his generation and him essentially saying like, we've always been here, which we knew, but he was explaining it from that perspective of like, that's why some of your friends didn't graduate high school.

That's why some of your friends graduated and I don't know how they graduated. They just got the diploma because the school was like, I want you out of my bill. You got to go. You got to go. You don't come back.

You know what I mean? And so I think that professional development is really honestly in that education is one of the main ways to approach it because one of the hurdles that you also come across is like, I've been doing this for so many years, so I know. And I had a mentor once that said, the day that you feel like you know enough and you don't need to learn anything else is the day that you need to retire. Mm-hmm. Agree.

That's always stuck with me because I was like, you can always learn something else. And if you shut yourself off to learning, then you're done. Agree. I'd love for you to do. I agree.

Yeah, it's time for you to move on then if you get to that point 100%. I want to be respectful of our time here, but I could easily go on and keep chatting and asking all the questions. If there were, if you could leave the listeners or the viewers with one takeaway or message, what would it be? It is a person who is trying to figure out how to navigate and advocate for their child in a school. Maybe it's for a person who is a elite diagnosed individual.

What's one takeaway that you will, or maybe it's someone who's just listening because they want to learn more about neurodivergence. What's a takeaway that you would love for everyone to have? I would love for everyone to do their research. I think that it is easy to be complacent with what you think you know. I think that it's easy to be complacent with what other people provide for you.

So there's a lot of groups out there and a lot of parents have their perspective on special education and autism and ADHD and neurodivergence and how to address and how to approach it. Recently there's been a flurry of books, some good, some atrocious. I was just being honest. Do your research. Look into what it is you think you know.

Ask questions and be curious. That is the only way to really support yourself, to support your child and to navigate this journey. Never just take anything at face value. Yeah, I was just going to say be careful of what you consume on social media too because there is an influx of people who are sharing about ADHD and autism and some of it's good and some of it's not accurate. So be careful on what you're taking as to be true.

And as you mentioned, I just want to echo that again. Do your research and make sure that you're getting trusted information. Same with just to echo that special education. There's a lot of advocates popping up on social media and I get people in my comments all the time challenging what I'm saying. And the biggest issue with what they're challenging is that they're speaking for their state.

Right. I'm speaking for USA federal. And a lot of people don't recognize or know that. So they're like no, that's not legal. And I'm like, but it is.

This is what my state does or my district does like this is what we do. And I'm like, that's actually not legal. So that for a quick second though, a lot of faith in districts. What they do is just what they do, but it's not legal. It's just what they're to get away with.

So it is important to know what is legal at the federal level, folks. Yes. I was talking to people you need to know IDA, you need to know fate and you need to know your state Department of Education would say sometimes short as C. So S.E.A. you need to know their guidelines because federal law lends the blueprint and then they let states determine from there.

And so it's very important for you to know what your state says. Yeah. Yeah. Destiny, let everyone know, speaking of social media, where they can follow you and I will add this in the show notes, but Destiny shares a lot of really important information, educational information on her platforms. And I've definitely been helped by a lot of what you share.

And personally, I do want to also thank you for helping me figure out how we could navigate having the conversation with our daughter about her autism diagnosis. And I did order the book that you shared with us and it went perfectly. So I want to thank you for that encouragement too. Yeah. That's awesome.

So you can find me on www.destinyhaveconsulting.com. I also am on Facebook at Destiny have consulting and then I'm on Instagram as Destiny have underscore IEP underscore advocate. Well, I will definitely make sure that that is included in the show notes, folks, in case you did not catch that. And Destiny Hough, I want to thank you so much for your time. I look forward to continuing to communicate with you and collaborate with you about every all the things because I do think that you're just such a great person to have in your corner to with all of your experience and your knowledge for nor divergent learners and for families of neuro divergent learners.

So again, thank you for your time and sharing with us this morning. Folks, if you are listening, please do subscribe to the podcast. You can find more at bethebrights.com. We're Bright Ideas Media and this is Bright Conversations and it has been a pleasure to have another episode here with you all. Thank you.

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