Level Up! Using Video Games in Speech Therapy with Erik Raj

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Transcript of “Level Up! Using Video Games in Speech Therapy” – Bright Conversations Podcast

Hi, everybody. I am so excited to be having this bright conversation with one of my favorite people. And first I'm Sarah. I am one of the co-founders of Bright Ideas as well as SLP Toolkit. And our topic today is all about how SLPs can use video games to as a legit, I loved this work.

And so no better person to talk about this than Erik Raj, who we were so fortunate to have present on this very topic for SLP Summit. And it was one of the best presentations. I was so engaged and I can't wait to continue this conversation with you. Welcome, Eric. Thanks for having me, Sarah.

I'm all about having these conversations about the options we have as clinicians. There are lots of different tools that we could use to continue the great work that we're doing. And video games and video games, adjacent stuff, is one of those tools. Yes, I loved. I'm okay.

First of all, it's very rare that I can pay complete attention from start to finish during a corpse. And I was fully engaged because I'm anything that has to do with rapport building with students and how to get the most out of students. And also how to take something actually fairly simple that doesn't require a ton of planning in advance and then have a really meaningful session. And I think your presentation on video games and how to use them in therapy, did it just that? Where did this idea even like come from to start incorporating that?

Well, I think you really nailed it when you mentioned that word rapport. So as a clinician, one of my goals early on when I start to be able to work with someone is how can I build that client clinician alliance? Because if we don't have that, then good luck getting anywhere near the goals and objectives that ultimately you need to be able to move towards. So when I think about the youth today, the data very much shows that a very substantial majority of children in some capacity really enjoy video games. So because I want to really build that relationship soon on, I think about the tools that I can use to start meaningful conversations.

And video games seems to be that thing that can really jumpstart a conversation . So I'm very aware with regard to like the clothing that my children wear, right ? So they come in for therapy and someone's wearing like a Mario brother shirt, right? So that's an opportunity for me to start the conversation. And then imagine a situation where we have the conversation because I know it is the shirt.

And then I say, you know what? Let's actually play Super Mario Brothers for a few moments to see if that triggers some great communication that is in line with some of the language expansion that we 're looking for. So I kind of take that idea and I really run with it. And it's all because of the true honor that I have for the children. You know, youth culture is a very real type of culture.

And the children that enjoy video games, I'm honoring that culture by inviting it into the therapeutic experience. Oh my gosh, I love that. And that's the one thing. And I've noticed this with you in other presentations that you have done too is I always think every time I watch you, how lucky the kids that get to work with you are. Because there is there is some something to be said for it is very authentic and genuine where you're coming from, but also like your investment in something like that, that means the world to them.

I can't even imagine like what you have been able to accomplish with some of these students that you're working with because we just need more of you. I think this idea of video games, but also your energy you bring, you very clearly care about these students and their success. And it's awesome to watch. And I would say it's a real joy for me to come to the therapy table in a manner where I'm looking at the client and I'm saying, you have something to teach me very often in education and in healthcare. There's like the provider and then there's like the client.

And sometimes it feels like it's the provider looking and speaking at the client. But how about a more even playing field where provider and client are coming together and there's that reciprocity where I can share some of my knowledge and you can share some of your knowledge. So as a person who loves video games, I don't know everything about video games . So I get so jazzed when the child comes to me and they're like, Hey, have you heard of this video game? And a lot of the times I have not heard of it.

So I provide a very enthusiastic, no, I don't dot dot dot and can you tell me about it? And I mean it. So I'm giving them the opportunity to organize their thoughts, create sentences in hopes that I as the active listener am able to understand it. And if there are moments of breakdown in communication, we can start to talk about it. I could say I understood the first part, but the second part was a little bit shaky.

What are some tools that maybe we could put into play, maybe like a graphic organizer to maybe organize our thoughts a little bit differently so that I fully understand this game that you are so passionate about. So that's a joy. And it really does showcase I think who we are as professionals. We want to have that reciprocity with our clients. Yes, I totally agree.

And I think it's been for a while obviously I feel like everything is digital like living on our phones and our tablets and our computers. But in the schools in particular, there's a big shift with COVID where we really had to start embracing technology. And so we did that kind of inspired like this, how to incorporate more of the technology into the therapy just because of the current state and where we are. Yeah, we have to be adaptive. We have to understand what the current trends are.

So yes, certainly COVID has influenced so much of the digital space. And in particular, yes, my work, you know, during that time, it was very unique in that many people were segregated, right? And sometimes one of the real connections that they had was this intentional use with jumping on a particular video game. And thanks to the internet, they're able to meet up with their friends. So I love this idea of video games as a very real source for communication.

It's not usually this solitary experience. Very often it is this shared experience where I could log on and you could log on and like we're playing together and there's conversation happening whether it's you and I providing directions to one another and we are moving through an obstacle course or maybe it's just conversation about how our days have been in and around while we're creating a digital environment or moving through some sort of digital space together. So there's so much communication that is happening. And I really started to first notice it as a result of what COVID has kind of brought to the table. Yeah.

Is that around the time when you and I want to get into it too, but you created video game app for specifically like SOPs, their games that would be good to use in therapy. But isn't that around the time when you started working on that? Yeah. That's exactly the time that it came together. Yeah.

I saw that there was a bit of an itch and I was like, you know what, I got to scratch this itch and it was a really cool opportunity for me to learn a little bit more about coding and all of that cool behind the scenes stuff to really just create something that is functional. That's so cool. Now let's obviously everybody wants to know the evidence that, you know, is there evidence that supports the use of video games? Oh, yeah. So what's really cool about one of the studies and reports that I like to think about, it comes to us from an organization called ESA.

So we as SOPs, we have ASHA, the American Speech Language Hearing Association. ESA is the Entertainment Software Association and each year they put together this really robust report where they're looking at video games and they want to showcase, you know, what is video games? How are video games impacting us from an American perspective? And you know, there are so much bits of data that can point to the evidence base that is beneficial. About 60, 61% of the US population reports playing video games each week for about an hour.

So that's a real nod to how from a cultural perspective, you know, this is something that is being identified as beneficial for us because we wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't. And you know, 79-ish percent report how video games bring them joy. 75-ish percent or speak about how video game play can be this real stress reduction and how over 70% of participants in the most recent report stated how video games are able to kind of connect them with different people. Individuals, they might have never been able to connect with before if it wasn 't for that video game. So those numbers really resonate with me in a big way because it showcases the real benefit to video games.

And then when we go beyond that, there are so many peer-reviewed journal articles where educators are speaking about the massively different ways in which video games can be infused into the curriculum. Minecraft seems to be a very popular topic that researchers are looking at. So the collaborative play that happens in Minecraft, the old school game of Tet ris is another one. If you go into Google Scholar right now and you type in Tetris, comma, research , so much evidence pointing to the ways in which a person is thinking during the play of Tetris and how that thinking is able to positively impact in so many other aspects of their lives. So there is just so many touch points that connect to the evidence base out there that showcases how video games are a very real tool that could be useful for some people.

And I'm not saying here, I'm not saying all of our clients on our caseloads need to be doing video games every single second of every single therapeutic minute, right ? But I am saying that this is an option for many of us. Yeah, and it will get into some of the concerns that people may have in a little bit. But I did find it interesting as I was watching the comments and the questions that were coming in during your presentation. There was a little bit of, I don't know what you would say, closed-mindedness to the use of video games and probably based on their own biases.

But one of the questions was like, how would you explain what it is you're doing if your principal walks into the classroom while you're playing video games? And somebody else commented and said, what do you say when you're playing a board game? We use board games all the time in therapy. And so, you know, I'm not quite sure why there wasn't that kind of a connection to whether we're using crafts or a board game or something. It's all about engagement and being able to have some fun because that's what the students want and then they can participate more and are more engaged.

But I thought it was just interesting. It's just a different type of board game that maybe seems to have issues with. Right. And you know what's interesting? I have a good buddy who is in the world of literacy, children's literature and the ways in which all of that can exist in the school setting.

And this friend of mine was mentioning how in the past comic books and in particular different types of graphic novels, they were viewed as, oh, those things, they shouldn't be in the schools largely because of like, oh, all of those pictures and you know what, there's a time and a place for those comics and they're like not for school. So I think it's just this natural evolution that needs to happen. Because now today's educator would certainly never point the finger at a graphic novel or a comic book and say, oh, those are devoid of literacy opportunities. But there was a time in which that was a very real concern. So we just need to kind of wait it out, I think, and understand that the evidence base is on our side and in time those individuals will see the light.

Exactly. And then the best way to do that is through examples because I think a lot of people too, especially if they're not big video gamers, aren't quite sure what games and what to do with them. So what are some of your favorites? Oh, sure. I am a big fan of freely available video games.

So there's a lot of web browser games that can be found that I've discovered on this website called itch.io. So that's itch.io. It's filled to the brim with lots of video games. So caution, if you go on there, you're going to have to spend some time sifting through what is relevant or what is appropriate for you. But there is this one game I've been playing and it's called pick whip.

So I'm going to spell that. That's P-I-K-W-I-P. And you can go on itch.io and you search that, you're going to find it. It's by a creator called Cookie crayon. And this is such a fun video game.

It's a two player video game where character one and character two are going to be climbing a mountain. But they're tethered together by this string and they can't get away from each other. So it's this great opportunity for teamwork to happen. So you and your clinician could play it together. Or if you're doing group therapy, you as the clinician can be the overseer and maybe client one and client two can be manipulating these characters.

And they need to speak to each other in order to know, okay, you should jump first. And then I'm going to jump because if we both jump at the same time, there's a likelihood we're going to fall through this little ice area and we're going to hit the bottom. And we have to start all over again. So it's this cooperation. It's opportunities for WH questions.

And all the while, there's laughter happening. There's this frustrating bond that happens where they do fall down to the bottom. And that's an opportunity to learn from, I don't want to say the mistake, but learn from the choice they made and how they could change that choice in a way where it doesn't happen again. And going back to that cool comment you made where someone was like, you know, what are you going to explain to your building principal when they come in and they kind of see this? What I would say is building principal, just close your eyes.

What are you hearing? You're hearing language. You're hearing laughter. You're hearing communication. And if your eyes are closed, you might be saying, oh, they're using maybe a more traditional, whatever that means, therapy material.

But they open their eyes and it's a digital therapy material. And they'll see you as a clinician collecting data. And that data can then be turned into relevant information that is helpful for the child, helpful for the parents, helpful for everyone on the IEP team to see how those children are growing as communicators. So pick whip. Anyone listening to this, go search that game and play.

It's freely available. I love that. That is like the best thing ever is don't look close, like close your eyes. And what are you hearing? Which is the goal.

That's what we want. I think that's a perfect response to that. There was another one you showed which I loved so much. Was it a goose? Yes.

Right. And I wanted to share more about that too because not only was there a lot happening during the game playing, but then there were what's the word I'm looking for. Other activities you did that correlated with that game. Like you kept it going. Yes, absolutely.

So I'm a huge fan of this game. It's called Untitled Goose Game. And it's available on Nintendo Switch. So oh, and other consoles like the PlayStations and such. So I mentioned that in the sense that I do recognize that is a barrier because that is a little bit more of a financial investment.

But that game is a pure work of art. And I'll talk about the game for a moment, but you know, a really good website that features a lot of games like Untitled Goose Game is a website called familygaming database.com. And if you go to that website, you can really be exposed to lots of video games . And they have a nice little write up on Untitled Goose Game in that website that certainly might be helpful for your listeners. So with that particular game, you are controlling a goose.

And the goose is a bit of a troublemaker in that it enjoys honking and it enjoys kind of like startling people in the town. So the game is set up in a bit of a puzzle. It gives you a to-do list where it says, "These are your objectives. You need to scare the farmer so he drops his rake. You need to steal the farmer's hat.

You need to maybe drag the farmer's seeds into the lake." So there's that multi-step direction stuff that I feel is so in line with lots of the clients I work together with. So we'll play the game and we'll talk through all of the multi-step directions. So of course, there's language happening. But then I try to leave the game in the sense that can we now reenact some parts of the game so we can be playful in the digital space by playing a game like Untitled Goose Game. And then we can leave the digital space and enter the IRL, meaning in real life .

So I have a goose mask and together with some of my young friends, we'll put on the goose mask. I'll use the iPad and we'll try to do like goose skits. So they'll plan out first the goose will do this and then secondly the goose will do that. So the child will write out their task as the goose because they're going to embody the goose by putting on the goose mask and then they'll say, "Okay, I'm going to sneak up on my friend who's maybe the other client in the group session and I'm going to startle the friend and then we're going to run out the door." So there's that step by step organization that is necessary and then I act as the camera person and I say action and then the children try to do their own skits and they're imagining themselves in that video game world but we're not in the video game world. So it's a nod to how video game adjacent activities are so much fun.

So it's not always just staring into the screen. It's then creating in the physical space that is a result of being inspired by the digital space. I love that. And that kind of goes the same with literacy based therapy to me was always my favorite because I could take that one book and use it for a month and same thing. We didn't just read the book but then it led to all of these other activities related to the story and so I think that is what's so cool about it.

Especially because we don't have a ton of time in the schools because our casel ids are large and we've got a lot of sometimes back-back sessions to plan. And so anything that doesn't require us to have a huge lesson plan is a win. So how do you take time ahead of time to know what it is that you're going to target? Like which goals, how you're going to target it using the video game? Or do you just have kind of a basic idea and let's see what happens?

Yeah. So what comes to my mind when I hear that great question is my friends and my have some speech sound challenges. So I have this idea into what words they're targeting. Many of us as SLPs, if you're saying our initial, we could start spitting out all the our initial words, right? And when you take a video game like off the shelf, if you will, that's an opportunity to present this very robust visual for the child, right?

So if the goal is to practice the R in the initial section of like the single words, you better believe it that a video game is going to be filled to the brim with that with that. I'm just randomly talking about that untitled goose game, right? So you're walking through the town and you're going to see lots of different R words right in front of you. You're going to see the radish because you're in the farm, right? You're going to see the rake because you're in the farm and you're just naturally reimagining this idea of the flashcard.

Flashcards are great, of course. I got a bunch of super duper, arctic cards right in my drawer, right? And they're cool, but like let's be 21st century sometimes and let's let the flashcards exist within this gaming session. So we see the rake and we pause the game. I'm all about the power of the pause.

We pause the game and I say, I see the rake. Can I hear it three times, but think about your lips or think about your tongue ? I can pull out the mirror. So now we're looking at the mirror and the game is still there, but we exit the game temporarily to think about our mouths and we're talking about the content of the game and then we unpause and we go back to playing and then we're still talking about the rake. So it's this back and forth that is able to happen and let's say I'm doing mixed group, right?

We have one friend working on the R and the other friend is working on some compare, contrast. So we can talk about maybe the two main characters in that scene. There's the goose and there is the farmer. A very real difference between the two is one's a human, one's an animal. One is a bit mischievous and one is a little bit more straight laced and just tending to the farms.

So we could talk about the similarities. We could talk about the differences with one friend, the other friend. I'm talking about the rake. I'm talking about the radish and it just allows for all of that to happen. And I'm trying to think more about that as I evolve and grow as a communicator.

I'm getting there and the more I kind of do it, the more it's becoming more obvious to me. Yeah, it's so cool. Is it challenging to find? Well, I guess it'd be a twofold question, so obviously age appropriate video games or trying to find games that I guess would be deemed more appropriate for the school set. Sure.

It can be a challenge. Video games, there are millions and millions of video games out there. So I'll just do a little shout out to that recent database I told you about. So it's familygamingdatabase.com. That's a place where you can specifically click on certain qualities and it is already carefully curated where it's bringing some of those video games to the surface for you to consider.

Personally, if we're thinking of more traditional video games that is on like a Nintendo Switch or like some sort of console, I like to focus on the video games that have an E rating, rated E for everyone. And that is going to give you games that I think most people would agree that are age appropriate or certainly are appropriate for like that K-12 school setting. So untitled goose game that we were mentioning that does have a rated E for everyone rating attached to it. And also I like to ask my clients, hey, are there any games that you're aware of? And I make it very clear, I say that some of these games that are very much popular these days, they might not be age appropriate.

So I'm aware of those games, but I'm wondering, do you know of any games that you think we should play in the schools that are age appropriate? And we do take the time to talk about ratings. So there's E for everyone. So like when I say E for everyone games, a lot of my clients understand that vocabulary. And sometimes I discover new ones from them in the same way that I go to a website like that gaming database one and I discover ones from like that software or that online portal.

So it's really just understanding that yes, it can be overwhelming, but there are certain websites that can help you out as well as enlist your clients whenever it's appropriate to help you out too. Well, and then it just was leading me to think, I don't play a lot of video games myself. Tetris and the word wordle, whatever that is online, but that's about it. So I would probably need to play these games ahead of time or be familiar with them, right? I know what I'm going to be doing during the activity.

Unless it's like you said, kids introducing it to me and they're teaching me as part of it. That certainly can be a possibility. Usually when I am asking a child for some recommendations, I will let it be known that, hey, you just gave me a homework assignment. And I think that's so cool for children to be able to hear that, oh, me as the adult, I have a homework assignment. So my homework assignment I say is, you know what, I'm going to check that game out.

I'm going to download it or at the very least, I'm going to read some reviews about it and I'm going to see if there's a way that I can bring it into the fold next session. So sometimes it looks like where we are actually playing the game or other times it might be, I found a YouTube video and there's a playthrough of the game and together we can watch the play through and we could pause the video at certain times where we can further discuss it or maybe I found a really good review online and this is written artifact where together the client and I are going to dissect the writing and we're going to see maybe what verbs were used because we might be thinking about verbs with that particular child or we're going to talk about maybe the flow. Is that paragraph containing the things that we were speaking about? Is that a healthy closing? Is that a legitimate opener?

So there's a lot of ways that we can, I think, think about video games that actually go beyond the actual playing of it. There's the playthroughs we can watch. There's a reading we could read. Kids are obsessed with watching people play games. I don't get it.

Or like unboxing. They love to watch people play a game and talk about it. It's fascinating. So sometimes you're just watching that and then stopping at different parts to talk about things that they're saying or doing. Absolutely.

And that's so in line with like what it means to be a 21st century person. So like you and I as adults we see things like in unboxing and we're just like I don't get it. But at the same time we can take away our bias as an adult and say there is something there because the youth culture is telling me there's something there. So I shouldn't ignore it. Like if I really want to be of best service I will honor it and I will try to see the value in it.

And it's not a hard try. Like I see it very clearly once I put on my SLP glasses and I'm like yeah there 's language all over this. So let's absolutely dig into it to allow that child to be able to showcase the ways in which they're communicating. Yeah I love that so much. That what we talked about like obviously age appropriate games because I'm sure that's a concern people have.

First of all I'm glad this is on video because everybody can see the old school machines you have in your office which are the coolest. And one of the ones that you had what was the one it's an old school fighting game that we all had like dating when we were in junior high. Yeah maybe it was a street fighter might be like a popular one. Yeah yeah. A lot of comments during the presentation on using street fighter because they deemed it to be violent and there you know weapons things like that.

Do you have do you talk to your students or your clients parents about like what they're allowed to play or not play is it was just a judgment thing. I mean to me that game is just a classic. So I didn't quite see it that way but there were some comments about it. Sure sure. Yeah so I think it's very important for us to be aware of what might be age appropriate for a client and what might not be age appropriate.

So yeah whenever possible it is cool to start these open discussions with our parents and we can share in a sense that we could share in a manner where they can feel as if firstly they're in this they're on the same page but also that they're like co-creating . So to answer your question do I ever let it be known to the parents that I might be doing one of these quote unquote like old school games I do and very often they will say back to me oh my goodness I remember that game when I was a youth and then very often they say I think that's a great idea absolutely and how cool is that. So yes this idea of okay there might be some dragons there might be like a sword and things like that for sure but really if we are honest with ourselves like let's think about some of the literature that is within schools I mean I work with middle schoolers and you know there was this one book that I was helping my one client better understand hatchet and long story short it was about a boy who was in the woods of Canada and you know there's a hatchet and he needs to kind of stay alive. So like this idea of kind of being in the wilderness and kind of understanding the ways in which you kind of move through an environment I mean that's really no different than some of these games where you know you have a sword and there's like medieval times and there's like you know these big spooky skeletons coming at you and you need to kind of like slash through in order to keep moving through you know I think it's imagination and when used appropriately it can really help grow the child's imagination which then helps them to want to talk about the things that they're seeing and thinking about. I love that was a perfect explanation because I remember at the time like thinking like let's be open minded about this I know but there is like such a thing I think that adults of our generation are experiencing like just like your comic book reference earlier where you know everybody's so concerned about the violence in games and what that's doing to the youth and to me that was not quite the same street fighter that would be with you know what's one of the other ones they all want to play.

Kids want to talk to me about it all the time too and I'm like oh I can't think . Yes it might be like like first person like shooters. Yes. Yes. Certainly the games you know I think there's lots of concerns with that and then the other concern I noticed that people had I wanted to address was just the overall concern with screen time that there's too much screen time and that can be detrimental and so let's not add more screen time.

Yeah and I think one of the best ways that I can start a conversation with that for the listeners they should check out commonsensemedia.org so commonsense is this wonderful nonprofit organization that is doing so much good with helping parents and children kind of navigate this very digital world that we're all a part of and this is like hot off the press. This came out last month in February. It's 2025 report by commonsense and it's titled something like media use by children between the ages of like zero and eight and what that is showing us amongst lots of other things is this idea that like screen use is not we have to reimagine really what screen use and like screen time is at this point in time. So when we think of screen time in the past when like you and I were younger it 's like us staring at the TV and it's this one way relationship where we are kind of looking at the TV and there's really no feedback that we are triggering unless we change the channel right. So now screen time is well beyond that like screen time could be my one client jumping on FaceTime with their father who's in the military and is not currently in the same location with the child right.

I don't think any of us would say oh that's too much screen time and if we bring into the fold of like video games I mean we are actively pushing a story forward. It's no different than like we're reading a book and we're turning the pages like no one would would say oh that's bad screen time with that child who's like reading the book and pushing the pages to the next like part right. You're going through this digital environment and you're the video game knows that you're there because you're triggering all these feedback points that is helping the character to progress. So it's active learning in lots of ways it's not passive you're not sitting there and watching the YouTube clip you're actively moving the media forward and and and I even mentioned the fact that like a lot of times these video games you're playing it with others with the headset on or you're doing what is called couch co-op meaning you and your friend are sitting side by side and you're talking it out while you're doing the video game stuff. So to jump back to that report one of the coolest findings in there is something like 75 75 ish percent of parents mentioned how at this point in time they're genuinely excited about what screen use is presenting to children because they're noticing how a lot of this screen use is not passive it's active they're learning new things they're communicating and connecting in very legitimate ways.

So I think we just have to wait for people to kind of understand how the idea of screen time and screen use has absolutely evolved since maybe like the 90s of just looking at a TV. I love that because I do I think I mean I always was really guilty of using you know the iPad as a babysitter but it was to put him in front of a show that you know where they're just kind of zoned out while I could finally go and brush my teeth and my hair is very different than a child playing something where they have to problem solve and like you said use their imagination and it's active. So I think that's it is it very that's a very different screen time versus like my use where I'm just scrolling TikTok for a long time. Yeah and if I if I could share this because I feel like this is a really neat thing for us to maybe to maybe think about as we move forward. So when we think about digital experiences there's so much research out there that is pointing to the family and how when families take time to kind of play video games together the research shows that the family members are reporting much stronger bonds and the same can be said with siblings when siblings are playing video games together data supports that they feel even more connected with each other.

So from a clinical sense like I can't help but notice that and think you know if I take the time to kind of play a game with a child how is that going to build that relationship how is that going to solidify that client clinician alliance and I think that it does and there's still work to be done and it's still this evolving thing but that's where people like you and I come in you know because we're making this space to intentionally discuss this and when we discuss these things more it becomes a little bit more clear in our minds. Yeah and that's what I was going to that was one of the things I did want to end with too is like any kind of success stories or like a cool moment you had with clients or things while you've been doing video you know playing video games in your sessions. Oh gosh there are many and this is one that comes to my mind. This idea that video games can really be used as wonderful analogies to help describe a particular phenomenon that might be happening. So I work with a lot of children who stutter and it's not uncommon for some of my clients to say things like there's a lot of frustration.

I have these temporary disruptions in my overflow of speech and I feel like it 's hard for me to move forward. So we'll play video games and we'll talk intentionally about the video game and how there might be an obstacle in front of that character and we'll talk about the ways in which they could choose to move through that obstacle. Sometimes they need to jump higher, sometimes they need to dig under the ground , sometimes they need to just plow through and starting that conversation about how are you going to move through an obstacle has been really cool because on more than one occasion children who stutter have said to me wait hold on this reminds me of stuttering and I didn't say anything like hey I want you to play this game and think about stuttering. I say them let's play a game and let's just talk for a little bit and they find the analogy or they find the metaphor in it and I say hmm and I allow there to be thinking time I say hmm and then they'll say something like I see myself in that character and I'm just like are you kidding me right? That's what video games can do.

I've noticed that and I want to continue to explore that. This idea of noticing some of yourself in that character and in that hero's journey that the character is going through as he's trying to you know slay the dragon to make it to the castle right? There's a lot that we can latch onto and I'm really happy to be able to co- create those experiences alongside with my clients. That's so cool. Oh my gosh.

Erik it is so amazing. I think maybe just the last thing would be you know how should somebody get started if this is a kind of a new approach and they're not quite sure what to even do what would be your recommendation. Yeah I would say to check out that database website familygamingdatabase.com and start poking around read some of their very intentional reviews. They have done a lot of work with thinking about that family units and how families can kind of circle around a particular video game. And we as clinicians when we see that I think our therapeutic fireworks go off and we're like okay we're looking at through the family lens but I see therapeutically how this might be something.

So to spend some time on that website I think you'll discover some really neat things. And then also I'll say if you ever want to touch base with me and just brainstorm something with me I'm very open. The DMs are open as they say right? So you can reach out to me at any time. Slide into the DMs.

I was just going to ask just tell the viewers or listeners however they're getting this information. Where can they find you? Yeah please reach out to me erikxrage.com so it's erikxraj and then the same can be said for Instagram just my name erikxrage on Instagram those are the two places. You'll email me through the website I hang out in my email inbox a lot and I also hang out in my Instagram DMs a lot. Fantastic.

So your video games online through your website too? Okay. For sure yeah. Okay. Yeah so you can find there's probably a link on there somewhere but that's called SLPVideoGames.com too if you want to check that out.

Okay very good thank you so much. I am so glad we got to continue this conversation and I hope that those of you who are watching or listening will try to level up your therapy and try something new out and build that rapport with your kids it's probably the most important thing you can do and so anyway I'd love to hear more about it reach out to us at bethebrightest.com and that's it for this episode. Thank you so much Erik. 

You're welcome bye bye. 

Alright bye.

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