Supporting Neurodivergent Kids Through Play & Connection

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Transcript of “Supporting Neurodivergent Kids Through Play & Connection” – Bright Conversations Podcast

Hi and welcome to Bright Conversations. I am Shontaye Glover Jones and I am your host today for this fascinating conversation. Today we are going to be talking about understanding dysregulation, using play for cognitive growth and supporting neurodivergent children through dynamic relationship based approaches. My guest for this conversation is Polina Shkadron, a trauma-certified speech language pathologist specializing in communication, feeding, autism, ADHD, and arfit.

Now, if you don't know what any of those are, stay tuned because we will be explaining more. Her specialty and her fascination with brain based research gives her a unique perspective into language and learning challenges. With over 15 years of experience, Paulina uses play based interventions to help families navigate emotional and behavioral challenges while fostering deeper connections. So it's my pleasure to introduce to you Paulina. Hi, Paulina.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. That introduction sounds great. Fantastic. It's very interesting all that you do and all that you cover.

And I'm very interested in learning more about how you're helping families and your approaches as we're seeing more and more children being identified as neurodivergent. And it can be tricky for families to navigate what that looks like for them. It can be tricky because neurodivergence is still a broad term. An individual to be neurodivergent. Yes, there's a diagnosis that's involved.

And also, I always tell families I'm not in the business of diagnosing. The diagnosis itself isn't going to change the way that I approach each individual child and each individual family because I'm still coming from that relationship-based model and perspective that it's really important to figure out where the child is developmentally. And I usually say that, yes, chronological age matters and at the same time it doesn't because we need to figure out where to align expectations. OK. I'm going to pause you right back because that's a very important point you just brought up.

And I do want to go back to that. But before we get deeper in the conversation, most of us that are listening, most of us in the field, have heard a lot about autism and understand what autism is and what autism isn't. I think that there tends to still be a little bit of gray area with understanding ADHD and how it impacts our students that we may be seeing in schools or our clients in private practice. And our fit may be unfamiliar to many people as well. So can you talk a little bit about ADHD and your work in that area as well as what our fit is?

Yes, definitely. And then we could come back to the autism piece because I have a small tidbit. Absolutely. I need to put out there. When it comes to ADHD, again, each child is unique.

There are going to be characteristics. And that's the reason I don't like using the term red flags because it's also automatically sound so negative. They're characteristic. They're qualities. Like very unique qualities that you pick up on.

ADHD can be broken up into three different types of presentations. That's the newest language. So there's a hyperactive and impulsive presentation. There could be a mainly inattentive presentation and then a combination of both . And it's really figuring out, again, I'm going to say the presentation itself, whatever the diagnosis is, doesn't really matter.

What matters is where are the strengths in this child and where are the difficulties? And there are going to be an overlap of these qualities. And that's the reason that the child gets diagnosed with ADHD. Right. And some of the qualities are that they will jump from activity to activity.

And instead of being an activity based therapist, I say that they jump from one idea to the next. And the reason that the ADHD brain does that is because it has a really hard time filtering information. So when you think of, you know, like a coffee filter, there's only certain things that we want to go through it. And for the ADHD mind, especially when kids are younger, it's really challenging to figure out what am I supposed to filter in? And what am I supposed to filter out?

So the kids who you're thinking of who are constantly blurting things out, and they can't simply just wait their turn because in their mind, what they're going through is that I have this thought and this idea. And it's the most important thing I've ever thought of. And let's say I don't tell you do this right now, it's going to vanish. It's just going to disappear. And it doesn't sound logical and to them, it's real because they don't know where to put that thought.

Like quite literally, they don't know what we mean in the beginning when I say, can you hold on to it? They're like, well, where am I supposed to put it? Yeah, what am I supposed to do with it? Because if I don't tell you what I'm thinking right now, it's never coming back . And then we get into the spiral of, and then it's never coming back.

And I'm not going to have another thought or another idea. And we go into this downward spiral of, I don't know what else to do. I'm never going to come up with anything, anything else to tell you. And in those moments, you know, it's so important to not over rationalize. Because then, and this is true for 88 chickens, this is true for autistic kids.

It's important to understand that when you attempt to over rationalize, you're having two different conversations. So you're having an adult conversation with a brain who is in a rational state. And that brain isn't meeting the brain of the other individual who really needs to have a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's where conflict happens. And when conflict happens, it turns into they're not listening. They're always being impulsive. They're non-compliant, right? They're behavioral and all these other lists of adjectives that are constantly being used to talk about kids who don't have the capacity or the skills in that moment to give you the adult exactly what you're looking for.

Yeah. As you're saying this, I'm thinking of in a school setting how this causes a conflict for a student who really needs to share something, but because the teacher is attempting to manage her classroom, she will use those very words, hold that thought for a minute. But for one, there's that time blindness. So a minute sounds like forever or very literal, a minute's up. That was time for me to tell you.

But then as you mentioned, where am I supposed to put it? And that student is probably not hearing anything else that the teacher is saying now because they're so focused on not losing that very important thing that they need to share with their teacher. And as you mentioned, that's when conflict happens. And also that child's not receptive to learning right now. Exactly.

And what the only thing that they are learning is that it must be that my thought of my idea are not important. And now in order to hold on to it, it's exactly what you said. I've had to tune out the rest of my environment because I can't do both things at the same time. Yeah. Follow all of these complex directions.

And then you're asking me to also hold on to my internal world. And the other really hard part, and this is where the social emotional piece comes in. Let's say the teacher finally calls on the child and they make a comment. Now their comment is not related at all to the conversation. Because that moment has passed.

Yes, absolutely. And I think it's important to give them like those in the moment, you know, everybody talks about like what about tools and strategies. They go, yes, those are great only when kids know what in the world they're for . When they're designed specifically for the individual child and when they've figured out, how do I use just this one thing? And let's see how this one thing can really help me.

And it's about like again, what their strengths are. So some kids are stronger in terms of their like verbal language and comprehension. And this all has to do with working memory. There are, you know, there's a verbal working memory. There's a nonverbal working memory.

We need to figure out where the strength is. What if they're both weak then like then what? So it's designing those tools specifically for the child and helping the child figure out. Well, when you have this thought, like, what does it appear as? Do you think of it as like, you know, a stream of consciousness was just like, where's just words or is it an idea of like an object?

You know, what is it that you picture when you have an idea and when you have this conversation with ADHD kids, then they begin to really tune into oh, other people's brains don't do this. Like, yeah. All right, got it. So what happens when I have a thought is it possible to really quickly get it out and how? Let's say the teacher can't call on you.

How do I get it out? Do I need to have a set of sticky notes on my desk so that that's those are all for my ideas. Can I quickly draw a symbol to representative so that I have a sense of relief of, oh, I don't have to hold on to this idea anymore? And that image is going to remind me of what I was thinking of. And that's the plan to have, you know, not in the moment in the classroom.

These are preemptive strategies. Right. This is a conversation between the child and the teacher to go, what blue are you going to give me? So that I know that this idea is the most important thing to you right now. Right.

Understand. And then that way there's a trust developed between the child and the teacher. And let's say that the day comes that the teacher can't call on them and that their idea does disappear. There's a conversation to be had afterwards to go. And this is again from the adult.

The adult goes, I get that this was so important to you. And I'm really, really sorry that your idea disappeared. I can't imagine how tough it must be for you. Now I have a question. Right.

That's it. And then you stop there and then the kid goes, oh, even though I wasn't called on. Oh my gosh, they totally get it. Yes. And now I even let's say I do lose my idea the next time.

I know that like this teacher or this adult is going to come back to me. We're going to have, you know, wanted to take us 30 seconds to acknowledge the fact that the this idea was lost. And then I feel like I'm still being heard and I'm being understood. And I do know that I can't be called on all the time. Right.

Right. It's such an important lesson and it's validating and affirming to that student that they know that this teacher, this staff person, this adult understands that I do have something important to share. Although the timing might not be that I can always speak it in that moment. I do think it takes and you led me right to the perfect bridge here that it takes a lot of buy in, not just giving your student those skills preemptively, but getting the school staff. And it's not just one home and master, but to get the school staff on board with this as well.

So that they're allowing a student to have sticky notes on their desk and not, you know, assuming that they're doodling or doing something nefarious with having these extra papers on their their desk. And also understanding how their brain functions differently and that this is really integral for this student being able to function and learn and trust and build that connection with you. If they're able to know that when I have an idea or thought, my teacher cares and wants to hear it, even if I can't share it in this moment, there will be an opportunity for me to speak with them later on or share my idea as soon as it's at the right time comes. I was also thinking about how this can be related to peer conversations because sometimes, you know, a student, especially one who has that robust language and vocabulary, they may be telling a story and the chaining just goes off. Right.

But in their brain, it's all connected, but some totally. But for the listeners like, wait, I lost you lost me. I forgot where we're supposed to be going because you went in a different direction than we originally started. So it's not just adults to child interaction, it can be peer interactions as well. And those are really challenging and in the beginning, the therapeutic work is yes, let the child have the monologue.

And it's up to me to actually make those connections because and then truncate the information for them. No, all of this, this whole story is coming through and instead of constantly, like me constantly interrupting, it's about finding that in to go, I just want to make sure that I'm following along. Right. It's always on me, not that like you're telling the story from beginning , middle to end. I want to make sure I'm following along.

Is this the main theme of like your idea, the story that you're telling me right now? And I put the entire thing together for them in as few words as possible. So in the beginning, I'm the integrator. I have to be in the beginning because they don't know how to do it yet. In the beginning, I am the executive functioner for all of the child, like all of the executive function skills that are, you know, lacking or some of the skills that are underdeveloped.

There aren't just three. There's, you know, a whole list of like 15 that are all interrelated and one builds upon the next and the next. And there's like beginning level skill, I like to call them and then intermediate and then advanced skills. And sometimes like we said, there's this expectation gap where, oh, they're biologically eight. So all eight year olds by this point should have this whole list of skills and here I am coming in saying, I understand where you were coming from.

And at the same time, that's just not the way that the 80 tree brain works. Absolutely. And it's also helping parents to advocate for their kids. I've had parents say, you know, I don't want to be the complainer. And I go, oh, you mean like the advocate, right?

Because your child can't yet advocate for themselves. They're in the process of and sometimes their advocacy is looked at from a different lens when it's actually advocates advocacy. They are very clearly showing you that they cannot handle anymore. Like they're very clearly telling you that this day has been a lot for me. And yet they're expected to push through because we need them to fit in with all the other kids.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's worse because then not only do they not fit in because they don't, then there's no, they don't have a sense of belonging. Like I don't belong anywhere. Where is my, where's my group?

Where are my people? Yeah. And we only have people are tribes. And I think what you said was, it seems simple, but it's so profound. The changing of the words that we use, the vocabies are very important.

So if you're viewing it as complaining, that is more of a negative view. But when you realize it's truly advocating for your child and modeling for them , how to eventually advocate for themselves. It empowers the families, right? So that they understand like this is necessary. Um, you know, oftentimes, uh, families and caregivers, they tend to view school staff, clinicians, doctors as the experts and that they know everything and tend to minimize their role as experts, your expert in your child.

So it's wonderful when we can give them little things like just changing your mindset and changing your wording to empower them to realize how important you are to this whole team approach. Exactly. And it's the, and it sounds easy and it's really not. And I tell parents all the time, I understand that it's really hard because I'm asking you to completely shift. I'm asking you to pivot.

I'm asking you to view your child from a different lens. You've had other experiences. I understand. And also this is, this is going to take time. You're going to mess up.

You're supposed to. Yeah. You're supposed to mess up. You're supposed to have disagreement. And then I said, what's so great is that you get to do it again the next day.

You have another opportunity. There's going to be another tantrum because that's inevitable. And then you have another chance to figure out and practice the skills and then know that the relationship is still secure. The relationship is not, and this is true for, you know, should be true for all kids. The relationship is not contingent on how well they do.

And it's those reward punishment that dynamics that I really ask parents and practitioners alike to move away from. Because then it's this arbitrary decision that's being made by an adult and an adult with power that says, I'm going to give you this thing again, something very arbitrary for something that isn't a choice in terms of, I can't always control my body. Right. I can't. Oh, and we can't ask human beings because it's impossible.

So we're putting these parameters on neurodivergent kids and also kids in general that say this is the way that you should always behave, act, feel, and everything else is unacceptable. Mm hmm. And then they develop this understanding that I should never attend to my needs . And I should never attune to what's going on with me or when can I tap out? Right.

When can I let other people know that I am going to hit a point where I'm not going to process anything you're saying. So I need a moment. Yeah. And that moment could be, you know, 15, 20, 25 minutes. However long that moment lasts, you can't put a timer on regulation or dys regulation.

No, there's no amount of, and this is something so important to understand. This is for autistic kids, for ADHD kids where when I've heard parents ask, how long do you need to be in your hiding spot? Right. How about we put a timer on how long you stay here and then I go, is there a timer for regulation? The parents realize, oh wait, I'm on the outside going.

I think that a minute is enough. Meanwhile, that's not how fast the nervous system comes back to neutral ever. Right. And it's also important to understand that on the outside, when it seems like the nervous system has come back to neutral, on the inside, it hasn't yet. It's going to take much longer.

And something really to be aware of when alpers happened is that when one happens, whether it's a smaller one or a big one, just be on the lookout for more to follow. Mm hmm. Because the system is already maxed. So it's up to again, the adults to really tune into what the child needs and figure out, do I need to adjust expectations for today? There are going to be other days that are higher expectation days.

Yeah. And encouraging the child and letting them know, I know that today you can handle this challenge. Right. And the other thing is, you might think that you can, and we're working through whatever that challenge is. We're going to make sure to check in with you and you let me know, like how far along we are.

Mm hmm. It doesn't mean that they're always going to back out. And that's the, that's the fear. A for parents, for teachers. Well, then they're never going to want to step up.

They're never going to want to do something that's hard for them. Right. Or for the ADHD brain, they're always going to want to procrastinate. Right. And procrastination has nothing to do with managing time.

It's managing your emotions. Nobody wants to do the hard thing. So nobody, nobody wants to do the hard thing. And we want to push it as far away from us. Because we know that this is going to be something that's going to take so much of my effort.

And so many of my resources that after this, I don't know what else I have to give. And at the same time, I have an entire school day ahead of me. So I'm going to make, right, the executive decision of not right now. And on the outside, it looks like they're not trying hard enough. Right.

They're not working to their potential. They're lazy. They're lazy, which is such an unfortunate term to use. And then kids start saying that about themselves. Yes.

They internalize that. Yes. And it's starting at such a younger age. I've heard it from. Very important.

I'm going to say I've heard it from like kindergarteners. Yes. Yeah. Because they've heard it so many times. And I think it's important to note that.

There are a lot of differences. Culturally, generally, generationally, when we think about how we were parented and how we thought we were supposed to parent. So it's going to be very difficult for people, for parents and caregivers to break away from what you traditionally knew to be the way to raise a child. So a lot of this does require or a lot of this is suggesting that you allow your child to have more say in their day to day and for some group, some communities, some generations. That's just unheard of.

You know, there's still some folks who are of the, you are to be seen and not heard. So you shouldn't be giving them so much ownership. But in my personal experience, I will say that doing those check ins makes a big difference. I think it's important as you alluded to earlier to not diminish what a child is telling you they feel about themselves. So they know what's happening in their bodies.

And when they can articulate that to you, it's important to not invalidate that . When you do that, you are teaching them from a very early age that to ignore what you feel to ignore what you think. And that can have a lot of other medical implications to when you're starting to ignore other symptoms that could be of another concern beyond, you know, what you are feeling emotionally. You could be ignoring something that could be a sign of another serious medical condition. So it's important to give children that autonomy and allow them to say like, whatever their words may be, but understand that they know what's happening in their body.

And if they say like, what one tip that I do instead of giving them a timer for like, this is your time to take a break, I'll say, do you feel ready yet? And if they say no, say, okay, I'll come back and check again in a little bit, because I'm going to take your word for it, that you're not ready. And I know that if I continue to push you, even though you said you're not ready, you may appear ready, but internally, like you mentioned, you're not ready. So we're not going to have a productive time. So let's just take another pause until you feel like you're ready to go.

And I think the myth or the thought, the notion is that they'll never be ready, that they're going to just waste time, but that's not true. That's not what they want. They just want to get back to a neutral state when they can continue with you. But again, I'm going to go back to what you said, you have to have that connection and you have to have the relationship with that child before that can happen. And then I'm going to say on the flip side, sometimes I have kids screaming.

Oh, I totally hear you. I do hear you and I trust that you think that you're ready. And we are just going to like continue the pause. Oh, okay. Because then because then that's the other side of like, oh, like they're the fits are trying.

They're yelling. And then after the storm passes, we go, well, in your mind, what is ready? Like, what does that even mean? Because we sometimes we use these types of terms and we think that kids know what they need because they use it because they say it back to us. But they only say back to us because we've said it to them so many times.

And when you ask a child for a word like my top ones are words like ready and safe. Mm. And like, well, what does it mean to keep your body safe? And the definition I get is, well, safe means to keep it safe. I go, right, we don't know.

Okay. Right. Because you've just heard you've just heard the adults say that to you or you 've heard. You've heard. The adults give you these type of directions or phrases.

And sometimes they'll say, well, that sounds like a grown up word. Mm hmm. When, when like kindergarten, the first graders will say something like, I, I need to, I need to stay focused. Um, can't get distracted. I go distracted.

What's distracted? Like, where have you heard that before? And it usually comes out that somebody has said that to them about them. Yeah. And now, like we said before, they've internalized it and it's become part of their identity.

I'm the kid who always gets distracted. I am. I'm the kid who never listens and I'm the kid who has to focus and I go, oh, like, that's a big job that you're giving to yourself. Right. Go, wow, like focus sounds like a small word and at the same time, there's so many things that we have to do.

Um, what is focus like? And I've asked, you know, some of my older kids that you've been told to pay attention. Like that's one of my favorite ones. Pay attention. You go, okay, great.

They said, what does that look like? Cause I want to know, I'm, and I'm so curious what they've been told paying attention looks like. And this is going to lead us a little bit toward like the autism route. Cause I've had kids say, um, well, it means that I have to be still. Yes.

Like, of course, right. It means I have this instill and I have to look at the other person. And that one like gets me and I said, well, to me, right now, you and I are chatting. And at the same time, you're building something. And go, do you feel like we're having a conversation?

Like, yeah. Oh, great. Are you looking at me? Like, are we sitting right across from each other? Are you looking at me?

No, I go, are we still having an interaction? Oh, we are. I go, and is your body completely still? Oh, it's not. I go, well, what does that tell you then?

It means that sometimes to tune into a person or their words on the side, you need to be doing something else. And I go, what about the looking at the other person? Then I've had kids go, it's not my favorite thing to do. And that's the eye contact piece that still gets me when we talk about autism. And it goes in either direction, just because a child makes eye contact, doesn 't mean that they're not autistic, just because a child doesn't make eye contact , doesn't mean that they are autistic.

And it's not just about eye contact. And even with that idea of you have to look at, you have to look at me. Like, look at me when I'm talking to you or like, look at me when I'm yelling at you. Like, who wants to take that in? And having a child say, I get that it's important for other people, and I can do it.

It's just not my favorite thing. Yeah. And then we get into masking. Like, are we really telling kids that to, you know, forgo what feels right for their bodies, they need to mask throughout the day. And then when they come home, it is a whole other ball game.

Yes. Yes, we are. That's exactly what we're doing. We're telling kids to do that because we have a idea of what their performance should look like in school, or they've. They've come to the conclusion based upon all the messages they received throughout the day that this is what I need to look like in school.

But when they go home, then it's when the mask falls off. Right. And then masking leads to burnout. And I've seen it and it's real. It's not something that's made up.

Burnout looks a little bit different for for autistic kids for than 8 HG kids. And then you have the combination of both of both. And I'm just here to say that that burnout is real. And it's in its physical and it's emotional. And when they are in burnout mode, they don't have access to executive function skills.

They don't. They don't have that capacity. And it's usually around certain periods during the school year, where there's a break coming up. And even even before the break. And sometimes it's again, it's individualized and also like you can you can track it.

Because for the, it's a pattern because for the same child, it'll come up around the same time of year. And it's figuring out what do they need before that. Like what do we need to do because we see, we see the same signs. We see the same clues like it's coming. It's just as hard for the kids to experience it and parents have said this.

It 's just as hard for them. Because then at that moment, they go, well, now we don 't know what to do because now it looks like there's, you know, non compliance in school. They don't want to do their work and we're getting the pressure off, but they have to show up and we're attempting to let the school know that they physically mentally and emotionally can't. That's a hard space to be in. It is.

That's a really, really tough one. And I think it's coming out more so. And it's such an important factor to recognize like what burnout is, what it looks like, what it means for a neuro divergent child. Because it's mostly neuro divergent adults that are speaking about like their experiences with with burnout and how do I then figure out how do I advocate for myself in a workplace. Like how do I let my boss know that I am going to be really productive for a short amount of time.

And then I need to pull back. So those big projects that you have planned. I'm going to be able to do them here. And I'm going to get it all done for you. And then, like, I need to pull back.

Like I'll show up. I need to pull back. I need to do something, you know, mundane. And then you could set me up with like another major project. And that's the advocacy that doesn't just start in adulthood.

There's no way that all of a sudden. Kids wake up as adults and go, I know how to advocate for myself. I've practiced it all along. No, it starts much earlier. We talked a bit about ADHD.

So let's move over and talk a little bit more now about arthid. Okay, so that's another, you know, it's a big one too. It is a medical diagnosis. It's considered to be part of the eating disorder realm. You know, it stands for avoid and restrictive food intake disorder.

There are also different subtypes of arthid. Sometimes it's, and the other thing is, it doesn't have an age range. So what that means is it's kids and it's adults. So sometimes it's a fear of food. And you can explain it.

It's something that's the way that you've been wired. And there's a fear component. There could also be like as a sensory base piece, where there are certain foods that, you know, I'm looking at them and like, I just, I can tell by the texture or by the taste or by the whatever. Like quality that these are the ones that like I can't handle. And then there's also just a lack of interest.

And I think that's part, I don't want to say that one is almost scarier than the other for a parent. Imagine like what it's like a parent feels like my soul priority is to feed my kid and they don't want to eat. I agree. That kicks up the parents fear, like, and then fear turns into anxiety . And then it's this in the beginning.

Sometimes it's like, well, just maybe I 'll force them to eat. Maybe then they'll like it. Maybe I'll just like all of a sudden, for some reason, the pediatricians thinks they're fine. And then until they're not fine. Like, what do I do?

And it's such a, again, it's such a complex diagnosis because it doesn't stand alone. There's usually an underlying when you keep digging, you could find underlying pieces because when you have a fear, right, of what this food is going to do to you, those fears are also scattered in other areas. Okay, so I was going to ask you that when you said earlier, when you look at a food, whether it's the texture, the way that it was prepared, consistency, and you know, I can't handle it. What does that mean? Does that mean that you know that it will make you feel nauseous that you might vomit?

What does that mean? So that's what you think that it'll do. Even without, even it could be even without any other prior experience with it. Because it's fears are irrational. They're not supposed to make sense.

And to the brain of the person who's experiencing it, it's real. And who diagnoses are fit? And usually it's like, anybody in like the other part is that you have to know what you're looking for. Okay. And there's a lot of, you know, back and forth with the families because it falls under, again, it falls under the eating disorder's umbrella.

And I think now it's, you know, getting there's more awareness about what our food can look like. And you know, certain kids and some adults have a, they're go to like their go to foods. And they can't explain the reason that those are their go to food. It 's just like, this is what my go to is like this is my fallback option. And they, for our food, I think it's something really important to understand.

It's not about, oh, they'll eat when they're hungry. They won't eat. Right. Like that strategy, like that idea. That does not work of, okay, like they're saying that they won't eat this for dinner.

They'll just eat when they're when they're hungry. I've had kids tell me, I, I just won't eat. And I've, and I've asked before I go well what is it like for you to go to a friend's house. And they are serving a food that in their minds they think you like. Because let's say people think, oh, pizza, right?

So kid friendly. Absolutely not. Like, there are so many difficult components of pizza. And even that, like , for some kids, it has to be from a particular restaurant, right? And I'm, you know, thinking of a client and she said to me, well, I will pretend that I'm eating it or I'm going to pretend I like it.

And then I'll still feel hungry. And I go, well, then what's going to happen? And she was like, I would rather be hungry. Like I would rather do that than even attempt to, like, eat this pizza that I don't know. So there's just, it's, it's a lot of work.

It's a lot of. No divergence category. It should. Okay. And it sounds like there's an anxiety component.

I know you were, you were saying, like, if you dig deeper, there's something else that's usually related. It sounds like maybe an anxiety disorder may coexist with, with this. And then exacerbate. And it's also really hard for kids to then tune into their own cues. Yeah.

And this is where, you know, it has to show up. And I, like, need to show this to parents in terms of, like, what it can look like. And I've seen kids, like, survey the table and then tense up immediately. And then, and it's not something the parent notices. It's my job to notice.

Okay. Yes. Right. And then I just make a comment in terms of, I'm just curious. I'm wondering, do you know what's happening with your body right now.

Instead of feeling like I'm calling them out and go again, approach it from a sense of wonder and curiosity. I'm just wondering, there's something that I noticed. Do you notice that about yourself. And then it gives them an opening. It's such an amazing opportunity.

And sometimes we get hit with an I don't know. And I say, would it be. Okay, for you. I can let you know what I notice. Right.

Again, like, it's all, it's all permission. Would it, would that work for you? Would I work for you? So this is what usually I get a yes. Like, would that work for you?

I just want to let you know what I notice. And I say, I noticed that you surveyed the table. And your body immediately tends up. And this is what tightness looks like on the outside. And then I get a head down or a yeah.

And I said, what's going on here. In your mind. And at the same time, like, I already know what's going on. And it's so important for them to say it. But then to, like, to really to say it out loud, because then it's out there and it's such an intense sense of relief.

And I can say. There's nothing for me here to eat. And I go, thank you so much for letting us know. And immediately the body relax es. They change their posture.

It's like a, whoa, they don't have to keep it in my mind. I don't have to fight it. And go, wow, like, how important is it for you to let me know, like, whoever else is in the session, let mom or dad know that this is what's going on for you in your mind. And then we go back to now. What is it like for you to know that we know.

And it's usually, oh my gosh, I feel so much better or like, it's good to go. Well, it sounds like a relief. Like, you don't have to hold it anymore. And now I also noticed that your body is different. Yeah.

So yes, it's really tough to, like, look at a table where in your mind, you go to, there's nothing for me here. And it could be that kind of a day where they're not up for the challenge or even though, like as adults, we feel like, but we did plan it. Right? Then there we come. Parents come with a yeah, but and it's also important for them, for all adults, really to recognize the yeah, but because I'll, I'll come in and I'll listen to a parent conversation and I 'll say, I'm just curious again for the parent.

Do you know how many times you yeah, but it. Yeah, I mean, they're probably not aware. They're probably not aware. No, no, I said, because when you're doing it to me, you're definitely doing it to your child. And every year, but is all I'm being recognized.

Oh, I'm not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's continuing with that recognition and that I would say because I mainly work with with kids. I would say with our kids with our feed, everybody's progress and process is different. We can't, we can't speed it up.

Just like with ADHD, just like with autism because we can't speed up the development of play. We can just like make them play faster. We can't make them move on to a new play idea faster. We can't make them become less impulsive, you know, faster. Just like, but often we can't make them eat something new faster.

By the time we get to that, I am comfortable enough to attempt this. We've built such a layer of trust and foundation that it is like unbreakable. And then when we when we get to that point, and it sounds like a long time and sometimes it is. And sometimes it's a little bit shorter. It's just, it's just worth it.

That's the thing. I think it's, it's worse building the relationship. It's worth building the trust because like, if that trust is broken, it's going to be really hard to rebuild it. For sure. I want to shift gears a little bit and just talk about play as you just brought up play and how play is essential for cognitive and emotional growth and how we can use play to build working memory, impulse control and so forth.

You want to talk a little? Of course. Yes, I can talk a lot about it. I know I feel like we need a part two or something else. This is a fabulous conversation.

There's just so much disgust so many layers. So I want to make sure that we do talk about play because that's one of the key points that we said we wanted to share as well. Yes. We might have to figure something out here, Paulina. Maybe we'll have a whole course or something because there's a lot here.

Yes. And here's to say that play is really complex. That's really what I want to put out there. There are a lot of layers in play. It builds linguistic development also to add to what you're saying in terms of cognitive and social emotional growth.

And the way that I look at play is also there's a motor component to it as well . There's a motor planning piece. And it's important to know that for autistic and ADHD kids, because there's such a big overlap with like difficulties with motor coordination and how their bodies move that it shows up in their play. So what that could look like is they're only staying on one side. Yeah.

So let's say, you know, they're they think in their mind that they're building a house and it's flat. And I go, Oh, when I think of a house, I think about walls standing up. Right. And then they go, Yep. And nothing happens.

And that's a really important clue for me to help parents understand that right now in this moment, I always say today, there's a disconnect between, first of all, like, how does a wall stand. And then how do I do that. Right. And then it also goes into, I think some, like get ready for the aha moment. This is connected to perspective taking.

When you are perspective in a place scene is only on one side. Whether you're just building across or you're only building up vertically. And you're not building around because you're not moving your body to the other side. How could you possibly view the perspective of the other person? Yeah.

You can't because you physically also can't like you can't put yourself in the mind of the other person because physically you don't even know what it means to move your body to the other side. Yeah. Like, what is a side? What do you mean by other? Like, what is the front?

What is the back? Yeah. What are all of those components even have to do? And it's again, different for all kids. And when you pick up on those clues, everything else really starts to make sense because it's all interconnected.

It's the brain. We're talking about the brain here. You can't address just one component without considering how it affects all the others. And when it comes to when it comes to play and let's say I go, well, I think you're building out a play idea. And this is what I love to do.

I go, how do we get started? There's a pause and oftentimes it's like, no, no. Yeah. And that's an executive function. Yes.

It's task initiation. It's exactly what it means to how do I get started on an essay? How do I get started on my homework? How do I prioritize? What does that look like?

So in play, when you ask a child, how you came in with an idea of, I don't know , making a princess castle. It's amazing. How do we start? There's this pause. There could be something about, oh, well, they need a roof.

I'm like, right, of course, the top. Or it's a minor detail of, well, we need the characters. I go, of course, that 's a small part of the idea. And you usually wonder, well, like, how do you get around it? Of course, we need the character, right?

Recognition. And then, I think it's a small part of the idea. What else could be there? Oh, we need food. Oh, great.

Yep. Absolutely. And then for the working member, for the verbal working memory piece, what I do is I let the kids know I'm going to hold on to your list. That like mental list that you're making for those who, and some of them really enjoy, like, writing out their list of ideas. Fantastic.

And the beginning idea, I can make the list for you. I can keep track of it in my mind. I can keep track of it written down. You let me know what works for you. Okay, you keep track of it.

Great. We need characters. Small idea. All right, we need food. Okay.

So now I'm thinking we need characters and food. Two small ideas. You're thinking about a party. A party needs to be in a place. What is that place?

And sometimes I'm telling you, it takes us like 15, 20 minutes to get there because we have to, we have to get there. And once we do, though, then we start to, we start to, we start to build. And that's how we build an idea is because as kids get used to that type of language and repertoire, they'll come in, they'll go, I know what you're going to ask me. You're going to say, how do we get started? But you know, like, I don't need you for this.

I'm going, oh my gosh, yes. I don't want you to need me for this, right? Like, I want to be your executive function all the time. I'm so glad that you know exactly how to get started. So, show me what that looks like.

And I'm saying, show me what that looks like. And at the same time, I'm still here. Like, if you hit a snow. So, let me know what you need me for. I am ready for a job.

Like, this is your, this is your show. I'm just here as a sidekick. And then it helps with their autonomy, it helps with their confidence. It all goes back to it helps with their learning. And so, what may look like, just play on the outside.

It's such huge effort that kids are usually eat when they leave. They're usually either hungry or tired of both. And then parents start, yes, and then parents start to recognize like, oh my g osh, they've worked. They said, yes. Right through.

They have had a job to do. It's the wonder they're like hungry, tired or both. Right. We say, you know, play is a child's work, but literally there's so much work involved for them when they are playing. I think sometimes it's under valued.

I do want to make sure that I give folks your information. It will be in the show notes as well. But, you know, you are a huge resource, a valuable resource of information. And for those who are closer to you in New York City that can work with you in person, that's fantastic. But I do want to share that there's ways to also learn from you through your channels and through your your websites.

So, please feel free to jump in. But I know that you have a play to learn consulting.com is your website. And then you're also on Instagram and YouTube. So the YouTube part, I have to check. It's a grab definitely.

It's at later on consulting. Facebook is at later on consulting. Also, I put up different podcast appearances on my website. That gets updated. I speak for professional development organizations also.

And I've had both parents and professionals join those. Those are full day or two day talks that I do fully on. It's a whole immersive experience on executive functioning. And sometimes even two days feels like it's that enough because there's so much that really needs to be discussed. And, you know, there's always an opportunity to connect.

Yeah, I think that this time, although this conversation was full of so much valuable information. It just wasn't enough time for us to really get into everything. So I do hope that we can continue to collaborate because I know our audience would benefit from learning more from you, both parents and professionals. One of the key takeaways for me throughout this conversation has just been the importance of the relationships and building those connections and trust. And then everything else obviously just released back to that.

And I want to thank you for your time for sharing with us today so much. And I want everyone to know that you can listen to this conversation on Apple music or Spotify. And you can also come to be the brightest.com. If you'd like to learn more and find additional professional development opportunities with bright ideas media. Paulina, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation.

It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure. It was so great.

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